Animals, "Thou" vs. "It"

Snowangel · Post by **Snowangel** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Hi again,

I have another question. I advise a group (at the college where I work and attend graduate school) called Students Promoting Education on Animal Compassion (SPEAC) and I would love to do a program next year on animals and mythology. I especially would love to promote the concept of referring to animals as "Thou" instead of "It".

Does anyone know of any authors or speakers who are knowledgeable on the subject? Or any programs for educators that cover this or a similar topic? If not, I would like to organize a roundtable on campus, so perhaps this would be a starting point for discussion.

Anyway, any ideas or thoughts would be apprectiated.

Thanks!

Snowangel · Post by **Snowangel** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Hi, I just re-read the description for this discussion group and saw the 'pre-college' part. Somehow I missed it, or in my eagerness only saw the 'college' part

I apologize if I have posted this in the incorrect area.

Post by **Clemsy** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Hi Barbara, and welcome to the JCF Forums! I don't know if we'll zap this thread on such a technicality. At worst we'll move it to the Conversation with 1000 Faces. However, although all the moderators moderate, well, everywhere, this forum is generally under the wise eyes of Mythinker.

Michael (aka Clemsy)
Moderator, JCF Forums

Snowangel · Post by **Snowangel** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Hi, and thanks for the welcome! Hopefully I will get the hang of 'where to post' soon. I appreciate you being patient with the 'newbie'

Post by **Clemsy** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Barbara,
I have one link you may find useful. Try Wild Sentry. They do a wonderful wilderness awareness program centered around Koani, a gray wolf. I've met them a couple times when they were presenting in the area. Pat and Bruce are great people, and doing valuable work. I don't know if this is the kind of thing you're looking for, but you can check out their site.

Clemsy

Snowangel · Post by **Snowangel** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Thanks, Michael! I took a quick glance so far and it looks interesting. It looks like they have even been to a nearby Museum in the past.

Thanks again for the link, this is a good starting point!

carnelian · Post by **carnelian** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Barbara,

I am an elementary school teacher and I've been working with kids and storytelling for the past eight or so years.

In many Native American stories, animals are very much "thous." I haven't done an intensive study of this, but I believe that many Native Americans saw themselves as part of the Circle of Life, on an equal footing with animals and the rest of the natural world. There was no greater than or less than. When an animal gave up its life to sustain the hunter, it was honored and thanked. I am awed and humbled by the understandings of the people who were here when the Europeans arrived and deemed them "uncivilized."

Check out Michael Caduto and Joseph Bruchac's teaching guides, among which is Keepers of the Animals. There are many wonderful Native American collections out there, too. Again, look up Joseph Bruchac's books. They're really good.

This year we did stories from around the world. It seems that other "indigenous" cultures shared the Native American view of animals as fellow creatures sharing this world together, as opposed to the hierarchical mastery approach of the Judaeo-Christian tradition.

I think what you're doing is terrific! I'd love to be a part of your group!

PS I think a reference to Joseph Bruchac was made at some point by another participant in these forums...perhaps he can add more...

_________________

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[ This Message was edited by: carnelian on 2003-05-27 20:02 ]

Post by **Clemsy** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Hey! That would be me! Joe's a neighbor, actually. I've heard him tell stories 'round a campfire. Great stuff! His website is http://www.josephbruchac.com/

His son, Jim, runs a great camp program for kids; wilderness awareness and such. My kids go every year. His site is: http://www.ndakinna.com/ Might be useful for you, Barbara.

Thanks for the reminder, Carnelian!

Clemsy

Snowangel · Post by **Snowangel** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Wow, this is wonderful! I appreciate your insights. I am hoping to come up with a creative way to get students interested in contemplating the possibility of animals being other than "its", and simultaneously opening the door to discussion of myth. Would be wonderful if our group could pull it off.

Your post gave me an interesting idea, which is to look into collaborating with our director of Multicultural Student Services to broaden appeal for the discussion. Perhaps by incorporating discussion of Native American mythology we would draw more than the usual animal lovers to the table.

Anyway, this is wonderful stuff. Thanks, both of you!

carnelian · Post by **carnelian** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

You're welcome, Clemsy!

I thought it might have been you, but I wasn't sure. I have never had the opportunity to hear Joe in person, but I did attend a tracking workshop that Jim was teaching just over a year ago. It was a stretch -- that's not an area of strength for me --but I enjoyed it and I really learned a lot. And when he told a story, I could hear his father's voice in his. (I use Joe's tapes all the time when I teach storytelling.)

Barbara, I'm glad my input was helpful.

I had another idea -- look into Andre Norton's "Catfantastic" anthologies. They're fantasy based, and the feeling of many of the stories is just what you're talking about. No "it"s here. Some of my favorites are The Damcat in Vol.1, Bastet's Gift in Vol. 2, and Grow Old Along With Me in Vol. 5.

Even if you don't use them at school, they make a terrific read.

Snowangel · Post by **Snowangel** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Thanks! I've never heard of them. I will check them out!

creekmary · Post by **creekmary** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

An "it"....I guess it is better to depersonalize something before you eat it or wear it or put it on a leash.

Don't people talk to their animals and expect them to understand?

Anyway, here is a wonderful book written by an unually perceptive child that I think shows we all used to know how to "personalize" everything. A little world where trees have souls and brooks have yearnings and it's easy to see why mice want to go on excursions. Opal Whitely's diary.

http://www.efn.org/~caruso/fairyland/ca ... nter.shtml

Susan

Raphael · Post by **Raphael** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

I am awed and humbled by the understandings of the people who were here when the Europeans arrived and deemed them "uncivilized."

Yes they were 'uncivilized'. The indigenous still belonged, when the Europeans arrived, to the pre-historic cultures of humanity. They were still eating from the Tree of Life, having not yet been introduced to the Judaeo/Christian Tree of Knowledge. The Conquistadors arrived with a HIStory already mapped out for these people.
And it is interesting, profound and sad that we call recorded history, the epoch of Civilization.
This epoch we call Civilization certainly can be shown to have been a time when men have dominated and butchered one another, usually for control or access to elemental earthly resources. Slaves, gold…diamonds…black gold.

So you are correct when the pre-historic cultures were deemed ‘uncivilized’ by those who called themselves ‘civilized’, an oxymoron I suggest.

After the Europeans arrived in the Americas, a native population estimated at 100 million was reduced to 10 million in a span of 150 years.
It is a holocaust that still goes on today in stealth mode.
May I remind you that at the time of the Conquistadors and during the Inquisitions, those that were slain were slain by those wielding the ‘Crucifix’, those who evidently had a cross to bear.
The Crucifix not unlike the Swastika are both symbols of oppression and each should lay claim to an involvement in a ‘holocaust’.

So yes those people, the indigenous, the heathens, those who needed saving, in retrospect to their credit, they were the ‘uncivilized’. They were living a certain truth. They were, I suggest the human 'beings' who were overtaken by the human 'doings'.
Living simply by the cycles of the earth, sun, moon and stars. They were the Solar, Water and Fertility Cults displaced by the firepower of the Fire Cults, those that embraced the gift of fire, the seed of all future technology born from a thirst for knowledge. (apple juice?)
The mastery over Fire, which is essentially heat and light, lead to the gradual marginalizing of Mother Nature and other Cosmic cycles.

Manmade FIRE technology displaced Nature’s gifts of SOLAR and WATER.
It also made humanity dependent primarily on terrestrial non-renewable resources that FIRE likes to consume.

So in conclusion we have the classic battle of Man (Fire Cult) vs. Nature (Solar Cult), the heart and soul that defines many myths.

Namaste

Raphael

_________________
ENERGY = GOD ... Share Him is the Message...
God can be neither created nor destroyed; he can only be transformed into other forms of God. However there is a penalty for committing sin, for transforming God and it is called Entropy.

[ This Message was edited by: Raphael on 2006-03-10 06:32 ]

creekmary · Post by **creekmary** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Talking about Native Americans, there are some Native American movies with strong animal/myth threads. Not necessarily the point of the movie, sometimes just as a general background part of the world.

"Dreamkeeper" is a newer one -
"..old storyteller Indian asks his grandson to take his old pony and him to the great powwow. While traveling, Grandpa tells mysterious Indian tales of love, friendship and magic.

"Powwow Highway" is a pretty good medicine vision/hero journey movie with a few stories. "Smoke Signals" is sort of the same.

Susan

creekmary · Post by **creekmary** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. I've heard a lot of people try to guess what the sin was that caused expulsion from the garden and caused separation from god. Usually it's got something to do with sex. Hardly anyone thinks it's got much to do with apples.

I didn't think it had much to do with apples or sex. I thought it was disobedience. It could have been "don't get up before 10:00 on Thursdays" instead of "don't eat the apple". The main thing was, he said "don't" and they did. Chose to follow their own will separate from the will of god. They could not know the difference between good and evil as long as they walked with god and there was only good. They created that dichotomy.

(Another piece of mystic moola. We noticed creation was a split into dichotomy as it progressed. Light and darkness. Earth and water. Man and woman. Good and evil. But a little of that sort of stuff goes a long way.)

Susan