Art and Patronage

Discussion of Joseph Campbell's work with an emphasis on the personal creative impulse as well as the sociological role of the artist in today's global community.

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Andreas
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Post by Andreas » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:34 am

A patron is simply someone who has funds and wants to promote art and may have certain preferences about style, genre, structure in which the art will be created/displayed.
Yeah if they have the guts why don't they create their own art or write their own books? Most of them who want you to do as they like, they have nothing... just money. They are full of bullshit. I have met enough incompetent rich people and I can say... just money. Nothing to fear there.
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Post by honjaku » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:36 am

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Post by Andreas » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:12 am

Yeah because it is so difficult to find the money for a beer.
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Post by honjaku » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:39 am

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Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:12 am

Good morning Honjaku!
Oh everyone needs and enjoys the benefit of mentors -
I thought we were talking about patrons?
And then there is nothing mature/immature about a patron, thats a mischaracterization.
No... I was referring to your comment:
I don't know if I would call it parent-child but even if we did I'm not sure its that bad.

Me, I'll take the parent child patron relationship of the Sarah Lawrence variety any day of the week, month or year.
What does 'free and unfetterred' mean anyway?
In this context,an artist's art. Not what the patron wants, what the artist wants, even needs to produce. Whether or not the artist makes any money isn't the point here. What's an amateur in this regard? No poet starts writing with the idea "This is going to make me a living." Artistic success isn't only measured by money, especially that art labelled 'ahead of its time.'

Poetry, and all art, is the product of a creative impulse. My point here is that patronage can either nurture or prostitute that impulse. Artists don't need guides if they are masters of their craft. (I play the flute but I am no musician by a long shot. Anyone know a good teacher? :) )

I'll invite Martin, our resident artist, to chime in here later today.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas
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Post by Cindy B. » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:30 am

honjaku,

Do you by any chance have an artistic streak? If so, you'll understand what I mean when I say that those creative periods of flow are all the reward one needs. :)

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung
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Post by honjaku » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:39 pm

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Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:09 pm

Honjaky, I split this discussion because the conversation veered away from copyright issues to patronage and the impact of the patron on artistic production. What I understood from your posts seemed to be that artists needed the guidance of a patron. Perhaps I misunderstood.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas
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Post by Dionysus » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:07 pm

When the Buddhist monk or nun goes around asking for alms, it is the GIVER of alms that bows respectfully and says: Thank you.

Any of you happens to know why? Smile

It allows the giver the chance to give.
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Post by honjaku » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:36 am

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Post by Andreas » Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:27 am

If so, you'll understand what I mean when I say that those creative periods of flow are all the reward one needs.
8)
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Post by Andreas » Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:31 am

Now if you want to make a living from the content you have created then you have entered the marketplace and are answerable to your audience who are going to fork out money for your content - honjaku.
Or you just share your observations and feelings with the world. :D
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Post by Cindy B. » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:32 am

Andreas wrote:
Now if you want to make a living from the content you have created then you have entered the marketplace and are answerable to your audience who are going to fork out money for your content - honjaku.
Or you just share your observations and feelings with the world. :D
...which brings us back to the internet and what led to this topic from the other thread. If you merely want to gain exposure and/or share creative works with like-minded folks, the world wide web is a terrific medium. If down the road you want to make money off a particular piece posted on the web, be willing to assume the risk of it being copied for personal use, disseminated without permission, or perhaps plagiarized. If the risk isn't worth it to you in the long run, well, keep your creative work off the internet. :wink:

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P.S. Clemsy, feel free to move this post if you think it necessary.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung
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Post by Clemsy » Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:16 am

P.S. Clemsy, feel free to move this post if you think it necessary
.

Don't see why I would think so Cindy!

Honjaku... when I find myself quoting myself from earlier in the thread, I usually decide it's time to get off the merry-go-round.

I don't see how this:
My point here is that patronage can either nurture or prostitute that impulse. Artists don't need guides if they are masters of their craft.
...is not necessarily in contradiction to what you're saying.

Although I can't help but feel this:
If you think it shouldn't be so, they 'should' provide the patronage and you can make any squiggles in your backyard, come on man, just how narcissistic have we become?
A patron will hire an artist because he likes his squiggles, no?
Even the most skilled benefit from a coach who will provide good feedback and areas and ways for improvement and refinement.
A coach is an expert in his sport. A patron is not necessarily an expert in art (and whether a critic is an expert is an interesting argument. John Keats' work was despised by critics.) The relationship is better served, again as I stated earlier, between the master and the apprentice, or teacher and student, not the patron and the artist.

Indeed, a patron who feels he knows an artist's art better than the artist herself sounds more narcissistic to me. I see a 'patron of the arts' as a generous soul who provides the capital for art to thrive, not to guide what art should produce.

To put a finer point on it, the analogy between Campbell and his employer is not the same as that between patron and artist. (And I don't know what restrictions were placed on him other than a daily schedule. I am also an educator, yes? I teach two courses: one with a predefined curriculum (which I am quite free to recommend modifications to at any time), the other a course I designed on my own, completely, with no administrator looking over my shoulder at any time... as I am trusted to know what I'm doing. Does that make me a narcissist?)

I also am quite confident Campbell had no one 'guiding' him while he wrote Hero or Masks of God.

You know... I keep trying to picture someone trying to 'guide' Salvador Dali.
Dalí was expelled from the Academia in 1926, shortly before his final exams, when he stated that no one on the faculty was competent enough to examine him.
Was he a narcissist? Maybe. (He was certainly ...odd.) So what? What would that have to do with his art?

His squiggles have done quite well. :lol:
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas
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Post by Evinnra » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:43 am

Dionysus wrote:
When the Buddhist monk or nun goes around asking for alms, it is the GIVER of alms that bows respectfully and says: Thank you.

Any of you happens to know why? Smile

It allows the giver the chance to give.
Yes. 8)
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
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