General Crosstalk - A Spot for the Odd Comment

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CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:37 am

I'm retired, James. Nearly everything I do is restful and playful now. Over the course of my life, I often remember making a special point of setting aside time to do absolutely nothing. Sometimes, I needed months and years of time off just to feel centered again. Some of the most engaging and important tasks I took on over the span of my whole life turned out to be grueling. Periodic recovery turned into a project unto itself.

There was a play called "Waiting for Godot" and a PBS comedy series called "Waiting for God". Those titles remind me that I'm not really old enough to be seized by the sense that I'm waiting around for the last roundup, but I am certainly old enough to think that if this is all there is, then I might as well keep dancing. I do my dance-like exercises with the enthusiasm of someone who has no patience for the discipline of choreographed steps or ballet and such. I just turn on the music (in my ears or inside my head) and move. It is joy and play and lifts my spirits, without fail. I forget time and love being here.

It's true that I am somewhat tough on myself, but never tough enough for everyone and always too tough for others. Especially now, I try to take it as it comes, though not always as well as I'd like. For example, the next class I enroll in at the university will be an audit for that very reason. The others were not for a transcript grade (Credit-No Credit), but the papers and tests were graded, and I found myself wanting to do as well as I could. In the next course, performance will be second to the sheer enjoyment of learning.

Of the four courses I've taken so far, I skipped the tests and papers for one of the classes, because the subject matter turned me inside out and blew my brains all over the room. I couldn't do more than read and think and participate in the class discussions. I enjoyed all the classes, but they did remind me of the pressure and the artificiality of academia. It is a huge privilege to be able to learn in a formal setting, but I'm not sure what to do with what I know. Sometimes, I just have my takeaways and I put them in a brain box marked "miscellaneous stuff".

There are steps I could take to find out if I still have a chance of turning things around before it's too late, and I'm procrastinating. It involves overcoming the feeling that I've internalized some sort of outside pressure that I should just ignore. You know that thing that happens when you walk into a room and the picture on the wall is hanging crooked? If it is your own place, maybe you can't resist stopping everything to make it level. If it's somebody else's place or a public location, you debate whether to say or do something. It can be a niggly bother that you remember and can't shake off. That's what public policy is for me. It's the picture on the wall, and it's almost always off kilter. Makes me not want to look at pictures on walls.

So, I keep dancing.

~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene
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Post by JamesN. » Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:44 pm

Carmela; for each of us there are unique (inner) individual challenges that must be dealt with as our life progresses; and this challenge from what I interpret from Joseph's work IMHO "is" the task that the individual must assimilate. The issue as I see it here is about "Life Stage" challenge; along with one's individual or personal concerns. Although I should have been clearer my suggestions were offered more in reference to something that might serve to provide "meaning and fulfillment"; (something that you love); not self-improvement or entertainment. An activity or outlet that might give voice to one's innermost being in utilizing their sacred space; not the answer to necessarily solving a problem; (although it might help); but something to bring some sense of joy that would help in harmonizing one's inner landscape. This may not work for you but like I said though this was only a suggestion. (I might add here that one's "Sacred Space" as Joseph describes it IMO refers to a sort of mindscape or psychological inner landscape that one can bring forth what their potential is and what they might be able to bring forth as an expression of who and what they can become. He stated in "The Power of Myth" that he considered this idea of "sacred space" an absolute necessity for an individual living in today's modern world.) Perhaps we may interpret this concept differently; it's not for me to say what's right for you.

I'm not saying that your approach is wrong; but in this case the type of issues over many of the posts we've been discussing as I've come to understand them seem to be more concerned with dealing with elements of this "Jungian Matrix" such as: the Shadow, the Persona, the Ego, the Anima/Animus, the Self; the Archetypes and Archetypal Images. Throughout so many of Joseph's lectures he specifically targets these particular points of concern and areas of the psyche that define the very reasons why Carl Jung's work is so important as a means to address these deep psychological needs. One only need turn on the news for any number of examples of violent and dysfunctional human behavior to understand how critical this need applies. In much of his later work Joseph also points out there will be new demands on the future global individual in how he navigates his sense of the world going forward since his old one is changing so rapidly and it is this psychological aspect that will become more and more important as time goes on.

This can be very difficult subject matter for anyone to grapple with let alone articulate; and fortunately for the Forums Jung's themes and tennets are identified and explained extremely well by Cindy's efforts within the "Jung in the Weeds" threads. I can only speak for myself since each of us must find their own way; but by spending some time with them as I have mentioned in various earlier posts they have been of enormous service for me in coming to terms and dealing with much of the my own interior geography that Joseph describes. And by utilizing them as resources within my own ongoing struggles for clarity they have provided an indispensable aid in my efforts to move forward. So perhaps they may be of some assistance to you as well with many of the matters you have been discussing. (In the end you must follow whatever course you feel is right for you so I will say no more.)

At any rate here are several links that might provide more clarity as some examples.



Psychological Function: Dismissal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJCxxT-IYvs


Shadow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3x6D24UDPY


Archetypes of the Unconscious

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvZMP9hYfKg



Namaste :)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne
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Post by CarmelaBear » Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:20 pm

...something that might serve to provide "meaning and fulfillment"...
Jung asked himself about his own myth, and for all his insight and knowledge, he did not know. I have far less to go on, and I have very little clue. I don't know what is at work, and I can only do what I can do.

I did listen to all the lecture links and more besides. What would be meaningful to me? Well, the only work that even begins to sound exciting enough to be worth the trouble is not part of my reality. Not a problem, really, since retired people have no need of work. Love is a problem that requires two people to relate to each other, and beyond the harmless trips for coffee, I see nothing happening in that department. Religion? Well, it's a search for truth, which just goes on like the universe expanding into nothingness.

The feelings are neither bad nor good. I keep up a brave face and smile for the audience, and do battle with the appetite for foods that comfort and entertainment that distracts. Thoughts are well-honed and guided by hidden hands.

Am I being thrown off by society, unrecognized and discarded like old dirty laundry? Well, not entirely. There is always a nice spot for those who know how to behave, and I've practiced that violin enough to make it to Carnegie Hall.

God is the rescue, and Campbell says we each represent what we see as God. Even after his suffering, the Son is only the Hand of God. He cannot displace the Father's authority or centrality. The one true religion came up with this weird, twisted equality for the One God, wherein the later, subordinate Son is mystically one with the earlier, Old Testament Father who did not have to suffer, and they share the honors as the One Big Dog in the heavenly kennel.

The old religion is useless to the urban know-it-all. As an idea, it is on a par with all other metaphors...intellectually...but not as an organization that commands the loyalty of more humans than any other system of beliefs or metaphors that ever came into being. It is uniquely powerful in a way that makes sense in a world where the United States, dominated by Christians, can offer up only an idiot reality tv host and and yet another infinitely stupid true believer to lead the world as the temperatures rise and the number of ways we can destroy our own species just increase without relief.

Death means something. Yes, as an individual, I will one day die, but my health is good and that day may not arrive for another 30 or 40 years. That's a long time to be cast off like an old shoe and just behave as if I were merely one small vote in a sea of votes. It is the death of humanity that looms. It's getting more immediate and urgent every day, but we could go another 30 or 40 years before the major coast lines are inundated.

Life is fulfilling, especially a full life that fills a person up with joy. As a person, I'm so blissed out that I sometimes throw darts at maps just for fun. Where will I go next?

I don't know.

About Jung---did he ever discover his personal myth?

~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene
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Post by JamesN. » Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:42 pm

Carmela let me clear up any possible confusion about what I'm trying to get at concerning our discussions and what I see as Joseph's approach. (This is not a criticism of your views; not at all. I would suggest to you that you are already on your path but possibly unsure of where to go next. This "is" the Dark Forrest of the Adventure and where all the lines of possibility intersect. Here are a couple of quotes of Joseph's that I like.
1.) " The hero's journey is a symbol that binds in the original sense of the word, two distant ideas: the spiritual quest of the ancients; with the modern search for identity. " - " The Hero's Journey"

2.) " Jung speaks of the curve of a lifetime: the first half is the time of relationships, and the second half is the time of finding the sense of life within; or as the Hindus say, " following the Marga ", - the path, the footsteps of the human experience you've had - to your own inward life.
The major difference here to me is the understanding of what a (Personal Myth) means in relation to one's idea of their own journey. You are in "Quest" of what this is; what it means; what is this experience telling me about who and what I am. Is it my story; my religion; my rapture; my identity; my destiny; what the hell is it? Well In my view the answer is yes to all of that ; but there are also questions involved as to what this (subjective) interpretation might really be for an individual since for different folks it may vary ???; (you know).

I had an interesting experience recently where I was immersed in a weekend review of a couple of the videos of Joseph's work; namely "The Power of Myth" and "The Hero's Journey". And during the beginning of the Hero's Journey there was a point being made about people's misconception of what a myth really is where upon the story of Jung's crisis you just mentioned was brought up. And the point was made about what it means to live with a myth and without one; and Jung realized he did not know. So he responds by saying: "I made it my (task of tasks) of my life to find out by what myth by which I was living." You asked did Carl Jung ever find his personal myth and the answer is yes; it became the major turning point of his life; and a huge insight for Joseph's approach in his thinking as he stated.

(During the video for me there arose a critical issue; Joseph states: "That if you can find that initial point then you can begin your own reconstruction") And that reconstruction is the process of identifying what one's myth is. Here for me is where the light came on. You must ask yourself the kinds of questions we have been talking about; for instance like: "What is it that moves you at your deepest level? What gives you meaning? What makes you do the things you do? What is it that you most love? What is my next step? Etc., etc., and so on; for you are trying to get a sense of what is ticking inside you that will lead you to where you need to go. Nobody can tell you what it is going to be; and there will be uncertainty and possibly danger as well as suffering; possibly much suffering; but the point is to enter this dark forest where there is no path; and that is your path. Because Joseph emphasizes that if it is a known path it is someone else's path and not yours. Where Jung begins to come in to this is in thinking of this experience as part of an ongoing process; and one of the important later-life aspects of this process is called "Individuation" and it is a major insight into Joseph's ideas. (At least as I have come to understand it from everything I have read concerning Joseph's views on the subject.)

Joseph mentions in Diane Osbon's book: "Reflections on the Art of Living - A Joseph Campbell Companion"; he came to a moment in his life where all he had left was a single dollar bill he had stashed away and he thought to himself: "I wish someone would tell me what to do"; but he felt as long as he still had that dollar bill he still had resources and held on and continued his quest; the point being that in following this path one must have courage but also be aware the road is dangerous as well. But it is "your" path you are following; and like a detective you are sniffing out what the clues are through the Labyrinth of your own interior landscape to find the answers you seek; and these answers and realizations will most likely "not" come by expectation.

This may help give some extra clarity to the way I interpret Joseph's views on this.


Cheers
:)
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Post by CarmelaBear » Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:03 pm

Thank you, James.

:)
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene
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Post by JamesN. » Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:27 pm

I came across this clip from Joseph's lectures last night that further clarifies some of these same Jungian themes that we've been discussing. (It should be pointed out however that the particular examples he uses are obviously for demonstration purposes and to be utilized as metaphoric references; therefore should not be taken literally since these separate forms could present themselves in many different manifestations depending upon any individual's unique life circumstances.) And although Joseph presents these earlier concepts a little differently in his summations of these 4 separate psychological states of consciousness; IMHO they address many of the same recurrent mental and emotional concerns many of us face as we cross through the doorway of later life challenges; and are to be seen as thresholds of transformation to be assimilated and transcended so that a new way of life might begin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YK3ineIpeA


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Post by CarmelaBear » Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:36 am

On another note:

Remember Martin Weyers and Clemsy and bhodibliss? Absent from the Conversations, they post early and often on Facebook, avoiding this forum like it has become something old and worn out.

~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene
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Post by JamesN. » Fri Jul 29, 2016 8:52 am

CarmelaBear wrote:On another note:

Remember Martin Weyers and Clemsy and bhodibliss? Absent from the Conversations, they post early and often on Facebook, avoiding this forum like it has become something old and worn out.

~
Carmela; that remark about some of most loyal, dedicated, and supportive staff members of this website is not only unkind, disrespectful, and disingenuous; but most certainly uncalled for. They have literally been responsible for keeping this place afloat during these difficult times; and to say such a thing about people who as far as I am aware have never made any such remark about you and whose behavior has always been beyond reproach is most definitely is not in the spirit of these forums. Where or what they chose to post is most certainly up to them and should not be held up for some kind of suspicious or judgmental speculation.

Perhaps a refresher of the guidelines might be of help here.
:idea:


https://www.jcf.org/new/forum/template.php?page=1
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Post by romansh » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:48 pm

JamesN. wrote: Carmela; that remark about some of most loyal, dedicated, and supportive staff members of this website is not only unkind, disrespectful, and disingenuous; but most certainly uncalled for. They have literally been responsible for keeping this place afloat during these difficult times; and to say such a thing about people who as far as I am aware have never made any such remark about you and whose behavior has always been beyond reproach is most definitely is not in the spirit of these forums. Where or what they chose to post is most certainly up to them and should not be held up for some kind of suspicious or judgmental speculation.
One of the advantages of lack of a belief in free will is an understanding and perhaps an acceptance of the place in which we find ourselves. In no way should this be confounded with apathy.

Here I agree with James completely. There are circumstances that cause us to do what we do. And there are circumstances that caused Carmela to feel and express her opinion.

Personally I would have counselled Carmella to express her wants.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
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Post by JamesN. » Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:58 pm

Rom:
One of the advantages of lack of a belief in free will is an understanding and perhaps an acceptance of the place in which we find ourselves. In no way should this be confounded with apathy.
Rom your efforts at diplomacy are appreciated; however the place "we find ourselves" is governed by the forum guidelines of which Carmela after over 4,000 posts is "very" aware.

Rom:
Here I agree with James completely. There are circumstances that cause us to do what we do. And there are circumstances that caused Carmela to feel and express her opinion.
Glad you agree and yes everyone should be able to express their opinions; ( and as stated by the guidelines in a considerate and thoughtful manner).

Rom:
Personally I would have counselled Carmella to express her wants.
Do not assume that Carmela and I have not been involved in dialogue both in PM's and open forum discussions about this issue for a very long time. This remark was uncalled for and she knows it.

______________________________________________________________________

(Addendum)

As to why this issue concerning remarks and tone is so vital; I consider the "Discourse" thread linked below as an example to be one of the most important on these Forums. IMHO this concern is one of the most crucial aspects that separates our open discussions from the toxic vitriol that consistently contaminates so much of the internet and media outlets today. I was reminded of just how potent this poison is from these last 2 weeks of political convention coverage here in the US and the overall negative effect it is having on public life and behavior.

https://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic ... sc&start=0
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Post by romansh » Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:39 pm

JamesN. wrote:[
Do not assume that Carmela and I have not been involved in dialogue both in PM's and open forum discussions about this issue for a very long time. This remark was uncalled for and she knows it.
I did not assume anything James and I am glad that you spoken privately with Carmela.

My point remains, publicly I would have suggested an alternative approach to a very real feeling.
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Post by JamesN. » Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:29 pm

Rom:
My point remains, publicly I would have suggested an alternative approach to a very real feeling.
Rom; normally I would agree concerning an alternative approach. But just so we're clear; context matters; and the context included within this incident has a particularly important bearing; and your suggestion has been tried many times before and ignored. The main issue in this instance is not about someone's "real feelings"; but about someone who is aware of the guidelines and "the way in which they express their feelings towards others".



_____________________________________________________________________



Addendum:

I am adding a section of a post that moderator Clemsy made in the Discourse thread concerning some of his thoughts about the function that the Guidelines were designed to serve that may help to clear up any ambiguity for those reading this post who might be unfamiliar with this issue.



https://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic ... &start=105

The pattern is always the same. What starts as an exchange of ideas turns into personal comments and insults that derail the conversation. Subsequently, forum participation drops off. As I said earlier in this thread, everyone who has earned a ban from this site considered themselves superior, made sure everyone knew they thought so through personal comments, derailed conversations and considered themselves immune to the Guidelines written up for this site by the managing editor of the Joseph Campbell Foundation.

We aren't protecting associates from each other. We're protecting this forum. This is why the Guidelines are written as they are:

____________________________

Quote:
1. Respect others: Should the opinion of another associate spark your anger or scorn, rather than your spirit or mind, please take a deep breath and consider before posting an ungenerous response. Flaming, the online equivalent of ranting, can seem terribly gratifying in the short term, but it is a very ineffective form of communication.

The same can be said of ad hominem attacks, wherein an associate who is unhappy with a fellow associate's post attacks the colleague him- or herself, rather than discussing the ideas in the post that caused distress. If something an associate says makes you feel like you want to howl, please do it in the privacy of your own home.

2. Respect others' opinions: These are Conversations, not Conversions. 'Conversation' comes from the Latin words con ('with') and verso ('opposite'). We expect diverse opinions to be expressed in these forums, and welcome them. Remember, just because you disagree with what someone has to say doesn't mean they don't get to say it. Of course, it also doesn't mean you have to agree; if you chose to express your disagreement, do refer to guideline #1, however.

____________________________

Those are the ones that matter in this context. The bottom line is, address the ideas in the post. Respect that those ideas are of value to the person who wrote them.

Civility is expected, no? But that doesn't necessarily mean 'nice.'

Personalities won't be allowed to dominate this site with dogmatic and personally insulting rhetoric. As such, those who frequent this Forum generally appreciate the environment the Foundation is trying to nurture.

And we are tolerant to a fault sometimes. Since 2003, thereabouts, only four people have earned permanent bans. They all followed the same pattern. The vast majority of forum associates follow a learning curve and do just fine.

Note the word the Foundation uses for those who create a profile: associate. Comrade, ally, colleague. Self-styled Bosses, Generals and Messiahs need not apply.

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Post by Clemsy » Sun Jul 31, 2016 5:51 pm

CarmelaBear wrote:On another note:

Remember Martin Weyers and Clemsy and bhodibliss? Absent from the Conversations, they post early and often on Facebook, avoiding this forum like it has become something old and worn out.

~
Well then.

Carmela, to be quite plain, Stephen, Martin and myself have expanded responsibilities for the Foundation that are quite time consuming. Given that there are, right now, only four or five veteran associates participating on this bulletin board, I will continue to assume that you can do so without needing a referee. If anything of concern arises, feel free to private message me.

Fyi, the new website is nearing completion. When it is launched, this site will cease to exist. Some amount of these discussions will be archived. More on that when the time comes.

Cheers,
Clemsy
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