THERE IS NO LOGIC FOR EXISTENCE

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Post by bodhibliss » Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:57 pm

Or, as in the Genesis account, eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and one becomes as gods ...
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Post by Joemac » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:20 pm

Yes, the world’s current swelling mountain of issues. It’s best to be a child, a sheep, or a servant of God.
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Post by nandu » Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:33 am

IMO, it's best to realise you are one with God.

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Post by Joemac » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:00 am

As Christians we are taught to assume a humble role in being one with God, as a student and as a servant by those who have gone before us.
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Post by nandu » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:52 am

Humility and arrogance are two sides of the same coin: born out of delusion. It is said that after he attained enlightenment, the Buddha was asked by a passerby: "Who are you?" to which he replied: "I am the perfectly enlightened one." There was no arrogance there, only the statement of a fact: for a man who has succeeded in realising the Brahman, arrogance has no meaning.

Christ was stating the concept of "Aham Brahma Asmi" (I am the Brahman) when he said "I and the Father are one." It seems that those who seek, wherever they are in the world, ultimately reach the same place: "I and the Father are one", "Aham Brahma Asmi", "Tat Tvam Asi", "An al haq" (from Sufism).

Anyway, it's a difference of perception between you and me, Joe. If you want to be a servant, that is OK. For me, nothing short of Godhead will do.

This has been a long post and a large deviation from the topic of thread, for which I apologise. Having shot my bolt, I have the pleasure to withdraw.

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Post by Aireal » Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:22 pm

Jufa

Here is my logic for creation and man. God was lonely. He and Adam would go for walks together in the garden. Adam's sin then made it impossible for them to do this anymore. So God had to come up with a plan to redeem man, so they could once again enjoy walks in the garden together. The Bible in a nutshell.

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Post by bodhibliss » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:40 pm

Maybe this identification with God brings us closer to the point Jufa intended:
Now to go even deeper, we see in Gen.1:26 that "God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them." But wait, let us look at Heb.1:1-3, a parallel Scripture where it states God spoke once through his prophets, but now, "in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the EXPRESSED IMAGE OF HIS PERSON."
In the biblical revelation humans are created "in the image of God," and the Christ is "the expressed image" [emphasis mine] of God through whom all things were made, and is traditionally identified as God (a member of the triune godhead). Hence, by extrapolation, it's possible to believe we then, being in the image of God, share to some extent in that divine nature

... which brings us closer to the oriental concept of identification with God, as opposed to the usual western orientation of relationship to God.

Hardly the orthodox position, but worth exploring, as we do find this idea in some gnostic texts.

Does that make me (and thee) the point of the universe?

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Post by jufa » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:49 pm

To all the moderators and associates here. It has been deemed I have been in violation of this forums rules by certain ways and usage of words I have used. I did not join this forum for no other reason than to express my experience with hope someone would say, I never thought of it that way and; with the same attitude for reception from those whom would dialogue with me and present their experiences.

I have known for a long, long time that when a person sats out to change the world, their words and interpretations are only relative to another's understanding, first of all, to exactly what position is being presented. 2), regardless of what is presented, and the way it is presented and received, it will automatically touch either the Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde ego in another because all think they have the 'keys of David" and can produce ther wisdom of their son Solomon at will. So if I have touched just one in the wrong way, I humble myself to the Green Knight.

I'd like to give a definition of my way of experiencing life to all who are participation in this thread, and especially to you Bohi. I will do so in the following manner.

I just want to say that I am not attempting to change any one's mind or the way they accept their experience, belief, way of thinking, or their way of reaching their conclusions. As all here and I, I make my determination based solely on my experiences, because it is the experiences which makes me bring forth my favor of acknowledgedment.

To myself, I know to bring forth conceptual conjectures from what I've been taught from books is truely the delusion. Books tend to express the experience of the writer to others on an absolute basis. The writer's are absolute to him/her self, but the reading by others is something which cannot be felt nor lived in exactness of actuality. This does not say one cannot relate nor learn. It is saying one must relate; learn what was issused forth as that day's manna to that person relating, and then one must move on in the continuum of the moment of now when one lives and receive the manna issued forth to them from the "force - use the force Luke."

What I have experience is the fact that mankind live in a catch 22 situation. Man live in a parenthesis which began for him the exact moment of his conception. That parenthesis is a bubble within a bubble, within a bubble, within a bubble which he inherited from his parents, who inherited it from their parents going back beyond the cords of memory. One thing is sure, however, no human being is the beginning of himeself, and therefore, no human being is responsible for the principles and patterns they have inherited through DNA.

At conception mankind is indoctrinated with a universal human belief system which finds formation as the fetus dependent on DNA, water, and the life which carries it. So men begin their entrance into life as the change of structure which the DNA of the universal human consciousness built upon while we are still water creatures. Complete domination of the universal human indoctrination of our inherited DNA code of the human parenthesis takes place the exact moment men exit the womb of their carrier and become totally absorbed physically and mentally in the Spirit of life in the uniquiness with the very first breath. The uniquiness is the form the earth took and shaped itself to be man temporarily before it returns to its first love and originakl elements...the dust of the ground.

Instantly men become selfish individuals. And their universal human indoctrination find compounding factors to insure it's temporary existence, such as his parenths teaching him of the two sided coin of fear and aloneness, men become possessibe selfish individual ego's.

So men sat out on a journey of security; believing their minds are a creative power which will carry them up and beyond their predecessors. They reach out to the utmost parts if consciousness and find everywhere they go in height, breadth, and length, still they cannot shed the robe of aloneness and fear, nor stop believing themselves Atlas' and must carry the world on their shoulders.

At times there is a light which comes on in man and lets him know there is Something beyond. Something much greater than himself. But then there is the pain he feel; the joy he revel in, and the need he have been taught to work and acquire the good life by the sweat of his brow which will not leave So he buries himself in what he feel, and what he learned and grasp of intellegence. Never does man make the carryover that feelings, learning, and grasping are all one and the same entity...thought.

In order for the bodies to feel; emotions to flow, learning to stick, and the minds to grasp, there must be a corresponding element in the DNA consciousness which produced man's physical being in order for relativity to be relative.

Every generation repeats the same mental and physical endeavors. Demonstrate and portray the same mental and physical needs and deeds of preceeding generations only more sophisticated. Even the level of worship; seeking of the presence of that Something more greater than one's self has not been elevated to allow men to understand myth and metaphors of life. Of how to become the Master of the unit. And that the mind, body and soul are the great functioning principles and pattern and underlying source of man's manifested forms.

There is no power in the human mind, imagination nor thought process which has, or can change one iota of creation. The source of all power in the human realm is divine Consciousness or Life. The source of any kind of power man manifest by mind is his awareness of that Life. The source of power in the human imagination is the mental images the mind projects into the imagination, which stamps these images with labels according to its interpretations. And the source of power of the human thought stems from all the varieties of those interpretations of Life which become the patterns of man's physic.

To myself it matters not, therefore, what religions men profess and adhere too. It matters not what men label religioin because if it is their philosophy and output of their energy to do what they believe they must do to keep them with purpose.......that is their religion.

So I found regardless of what words of knowledge rolled off my tongues, at some point in my life I had to change my ways. I had to begin to question my human reasoning; to become a maverick, a rebel. if I was to reach that space in myself where my conscouseness would open unto the knowledge that I am not a divided Spirit. I had to come to grips with a number of things hindering me. The firsrt was I had to begin to understand the mind is not a creative power because all the minds fruits are by-product of that which already is. I had to face the truth that the human mind is an effect, and I could either find my way back to the 'causation' or forever be lost within myself. A Virgin Birth Occured.

The catch 22 is the bubble which the human mind has formed, which mind men use to reach the utmost point of the bubble believing they can burst it and move into a deeper realm of Being, only to find they cannot continue in their efforts of realization because of death.

The earth reclaims it's own substance. And because mankind is of the earth mentality;of believing in the tree of dualism to be its rightful order of inheritance, mankind is a subject victim to the recycling of the universal parenthesis he sought to escape previously by using the natural laws of human intellect, which he will one day find, after being recycled, himself once again climbing the collective walls of humanism.
"Thou we should soar into the heavens,
Thou we should sink into the abyss,
We never go out of ourselves.
It is always our own minds that we preceive."
R.W.Emerson
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Post by jufa » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:15 am

Bodhi, allow me to give you my definition of God by presentation of the Circle.

Religion, science and philosophy are the primers for mankind's awareness, but that is all they are. Nonetheless, mankind thinks and believes theyare the basis for their living, achievements, sucess whether good or bad, and on and on and on. But as all situations, circumstances, condition and even the enviorn, they come and go fluently in all individuals lives unnoticed because the attitude of memory keeps one locked into that which was. Repetition of all we do is repetitive of all that is.

The zero [man] is absolute only because the definition of the circle [unknown metaphor] is recognized. It is that definition which makes the the void -that which is in the middle, and on the outside of the definition - appear to be the more than the equal of the definition. But it is the definition which makes the circle visible because there lies the form. Had there been no form, there would be no definition, and all would be void. So the reality of the circle is the definition because it is the only form there is. And thus that reality is comprehended when it is realized the voids which surround the outer and inner perimeters of the definition are not divided because they are linked by definition. All are one circle because it is the definition of the circle which gives the void within and without their definition of dimensions. Take away the definition of the circle and there is nothingness. But how can the circle be removed without removing the void, for it is the circle which gives the void form and makes all relative to the definition.

It is the attempt to remove the existence of the circle of definition which cause the chaotic quantum world of dualiam. For religion, science, and philosophy to say that which is the definitive perimeter of the circle, and that within and without the definitive circle has no meaning, when the reality all can only relate to the circle because of the form they bear as the void.

The circle is the metaphior which makes all things metaphors for the circle is a continuum of one. One is a continuum of itself. This is the truest.......and only state of awarness man can touch as a human.

The Circle Is.

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Post by bodhibliss » Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:34 pm

Thanks for bearing with me Jufa, and taking the time to share the big picture from your perspective. I am sorry we got off on the wrong track

... but I do appreciate the beauty and complexity of your vision (the "bubble within a bubble within a bubble" metaphor is one example that struck me as an exquisite depiction of something difficult to express). There is a gnostic flavor to your thought that I find particularly appealing.
Jufa writes:

In order for the bodies to feel; emotions to flow, learning to stick, and the minds to grasp, there must be a corresponding element in the DNA consciousness which produced man's physical being in order for relativity to be relative.
Thanks for introducing the term "DNA consciousness" into the discussion (I am reminded of Campbell's observation that mythology is grounded in our biology).
Jufa continues:

There is no power in the human mind, imagination nor thought process which has, or can change one iota of creation. The source of all power in the human realm is divine Consciousness or Life. The source of any kind of power man manifest by mind is his awareness of that Life. The source of power in the human imagination is the mental images the mind projects into the imagination, which stamps these images with labels according to its interpretations. And the source of power of the human thought stems from all the varieties of those interpretations of Life which become the patterns of man's physic.
At first I found myself wanting to take issue with the initial sentence in the above passage - but the second and third sentences, which ring true in my experience, prompted me to let these ideas roll around in my brain a bit and see what gels (something I should do more often, to keep from jumping to confusions) ... and when I do that, I find myself thinking you do have a point.

And then I find myself pondering exactly what is the mind?

Jufa, you shed some light on that, pointing out what you have found to be major misconceptions - e.g., "there is no power in the human mind to change ... creation," or that the human mind projects mental images into the imagination, that "the mind's fruits are a by-product of that which already is," and that "the human mind is an effect."

And I am very much drawn to a related observation you make:
The source of all power in the human realm is divine Consciousness or Life. The source of any kind of power man manifest by mind is his awareness of that Life.
I know these are but bits and pieces of the whole, but they provoke thoughtful reflections.

I wouldn't say we disagree at all, though we might use different language and different metaphors to express parallel thoughts. What I'd like to know more about is what you conceive the human mind to be? Is it merely a by-product of DNA consciousness, or is there a divine spark there as well? (I think I catch a hint of that in what you're saying, especially the mention that the source of power manifest by the mind is the awareness of divine Consciousness or Life - but I'm not sure I'm reading you right.)

I'm not disagreeing with you - in fact, I very much appreciate the direction in which I think you're heading, and just want to learn more, especially about your conception of mind and the mind-body connection.

I also appreciate the metaphor of the Circle to illustrate your conception of God (I am reminded of the description of a cup as defined by the hollow it contains). I'll need to let this gel in my brain for a bit as well. I'm not sure I grasp the entire metaphor.
The circle is the metaphior which makes all things metaphors for the circle is a continuum of one. One is a continuum of itself.
I may have missed something here - I think I have a sense of what you're saying, but I'm not sure. Interesting that our symbol for null (or a void) is 0 (zero), a circle - and then the goal seems to be the unity of 1 (One). I am reminded of the binary code in computers (0 and 1), which in infinite combinations form the cyber universe ...
Jufa also writes

At times there is a light which comes on in man and lets him know there is Something beyond. Something much greater than himself.
How very true!

Thanks for sharing, Jufa, and thanks for your patience with me.

Unfortunately the demands of the workaday world eat up time I would rather devote to kicking back and enjoying these conversations - so if I don't respond right away to further comments you and other participants make, it's not from lack of interest - sooner or later I'll pop back in.

namaste,
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Post by jufa » Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:54 am

Bodhi, I so appreciate the flow of our dialogue. Most on forums I have visited deal totally from the intellect because they have not learned to separate human knowledge from metaphorical wisdom. And I have found those who do comprehend the contours of myth and metaphors intellectually seem to think they have arrived - arrived to what I ask myself? and find it is arrogance.
BodhiI wouldn't say we disagree at all, though we might use different language and different metaphors to express parallel thoughts. What I'd like to know more about is what you conceive the human mind to be? Is it merely a by-product of DNA consciousness, or is there a divine spark there as well? (I think I catch a hint of that in what you're saying, especially the mention that the source of power manifest by the mind is the awareness of divine Consciousness or Life - but I'm not sure I'm reading you right.)
And:
I also appreciate the metaphor of the Circle to illustrate your conception of God (I am reminded of the description of a cup as defined by the hollow it contains). I'll need to let this gel in my brain for a bit as well. I'm not sure I grasp the entire metaphor.

Quote:
The circle is the metaphior which makes all things metaphors for the circle is a continuum of one. One is a continuum of itself.


I may have missed something here - I think I have a sense of what you're saying, but I'm not sure. Interesting that our symbol for null (or a void) is 0 (zero), a circle - and then the goal seems to be the unity of 1 (One). I am reminded of the binary code in computers (0 and 1), which in infinite combinations form the cyber universe ...
Zero is not the reality. What is real is the outline circle which makes zero identifiable. Take away the one continuing circle and the metaphor is no more. Neither can the zero which was visible because of the metaphor. This to me means anything that exist because of the definition of the circle can only exist as that which created it.

Therefore, it is not the zero which is the entity. It is the circle which, although has no depth, yet height and length, which become a contained place holder physically within the circle.

This makes for the infinity of numbers. Not because of the zero, but the one continuous cricle of no beginning nor end. This makes for the reference point for all numbers. The circle does not give the void within it any volume or depth; only an inner circumference based upon the length, height and breadth of the Circle

Should zero then be be equated with infinity? yes, because there is a conscious structure to it because of the definition of the circle which is the causation of the zero. The conscious structure of the circle is the creator of the zero (man). And whatever conscious thoughts are within the interior of the circle must also be the same within the zero.

Take away the conscious thoughts, intent purpose of the circle; comprehension would cease. So would all volume and forms.

The Circle is.

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Post by boringguy » Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:14 pm

jufa

a thought and a question.

no matter where i arrive i always remember it is a starting point. keeps me humble.

in your analogy with the circle, or bodhi's with the cup, they create the definition from potential. so i'm trying to wrap my mind around what is the potential before the definition? do you have a metphor that will help me, with this?
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Post by Robert G. » Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:39 pm

Here's a link to a nice discussion on Wiggenstein that touches on the way 20th century philosophers moved away from the idea of an absolute or pre-existing "Logic" or "Truth" with The Capital Letter. This is not a technical, in-depth discussion, but all of the discussions at Philosphy Talk are nice because they are meant to be accessible to the non-specialist. It seems to me that, just as Kant put to rest the visions of the Idealists and the Empiricists, Wiggenstein put the stake through the heart of the Kantian devotion to "Reason" with a capital "R".
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Post by jufa » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:19 am

Boringguy says;

jufa a thought and a question. no matter where i arrive i always remember it is a starting point. keeps me humble. in your analogy with the circle, or bodhi's with the cup, they create the definition from potential. so i;m trying to wrap my mind around what is the potential before the definition? do you have a metaphor tht will help me, with this?
I do not see Bodhi's nor my analogy creating a definition from potential. - I assume you mean the taking away - What I present is an argument against nothingness. My perspective is based on the question Why is man the zero? Because he fills the inner definition of the circle with nothing of his own. Yet the definition of the circle is touched by the zero and this give the zero volume of height, length, and breadth.

Yet all of this is an illusion. The volume of height, length and breadth are not real. Why are they not real? because no one can see, hear, touch, taste, or smell the void which is defined as zero by the definition of the circle.

So what is the potential before the definition? It is the shrinking of the zero. The more the zero decrease, the more the circle expands and eliminates the void and illusion. And the more the zero is absorbed into the circle which gave it it's defintion of volume of height, length, and breadth, the more the zero dies and is resurrected from it's nothingness. The zero becomes one with the circle and lives in the infinity of "worlds without end."

This is true transcension.

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Post by jufa » Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:45 am

Bodhi stated:

What I'd like to know more about is what you conceive the human mind to be? is it merely a by-product of DNA consciousness, or is there a divine spark there as well?
Bodhi All men began in the invisible by way of thought long before matter or flesh became visible manifestations. Is it probable therefore man was given a choice by divine Consciousness while yet in Spirit form, and that choice lead to man choosing the vehicles - both parents - for entering into this dimension of being? If so, then in some way man must be aware of why he was given this choice, and the purpose for which it was given. Man was given this choice based on a promise from him.

So what is the vehicle which rides man into this dimension fully aware in Spirit, yet totally ignorant by remembrance? DNA consciousness. DNA consciousness contains all the building blocks to form the man and carry him all the day of his living in this dimension.

The life of thought, whether it be called spiritual or material, is invisible because life is of the Spirit of the Consciousness from which it began. Because man lives by thought, the reality of man's life is Consciousness. Man's life does not begin in the womb of a physical entity. Entering the womb of a physical entity represents the fulfilling of the promised purpose of choice one has made to be an example in showing how men can overcome the world of humanism.

Formation in the womb is not therefore for the purpose of bringing forth an individual entity with a will of it's own, to do what it will in violation of the objective - male - subjective - female - will of the harmony of creation. It is for the purpose of bringing to all men's memory their purpose of choice for entrance into this dimension was allow because they made the same promise to the Father as was given by this entity so the promised seed of man's true Spirit of Being could be realized.

The purpose of choice made when man had Spirit form becomes the door of entrance for the spark of life in only one sperm and egg. This spark is the linkage which enters into the specific egg and sperm chosen in the invisible to be this entities vehicles for formation in this realm to become an entity of mind, body, and soul. This is accomplished by DNA consciousness. This DNA consciousness becomes the spark of intelligence in one specific sperm. And it becomes the intelligence of the egg this sperm only has a pathway too. Conception.

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