Worthy Quotes in Interesting Times

Do you have a conversation topic that doesn't seem to fit any of the other conversations? Here is where we discuss ANYTHING about Joseph Campbell, comparative mythology, and more!

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Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy » Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:57 am

A lesson in contradiction for free market, social conservatives:
The after-tax income of the top 1 percent of Americans rose 228 percent from the late 1970s through 2005. The story for working families over that same stretch was one of constant struggle to just stay even. As the Pew Charitable Trusts reported last year: “The earnings of men in their 30s have remained surprisingly flat over the past four decades.”

Disaster was held at bay by the entrance of wives and mothers into the workplace, and by the embrace of colossal amounts of debt... ~Bob Herbert
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas
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Post by SteveC » Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:05 pm

As tempting as it is to blame the rich, they are more a symptom than a problem. A system that is unbalanced must have people who are rich and poor to 'maintain' the imbalance.

Yes, they have the power and the wealth to advocate, whereas the poor do not, but intellectually and emotionally they are EXACTLY the same as the middle and lower class. They want to escape the imbalanced system, too, and wealth is (currently) the only way to do that. The poor and the middle-class also want to maintain and improve their status; nobody wants to go backwards.

Bill Gates, for example, did not author the system of copyright or the imbalances in the economy. He can legitimately claim that he has improved the world, hired workers, changed the economy, etc. But does he understand how he became rich? No.

He was a college drop-out, and followed his interests. He wasn't interested in understanding and saving the world and instead followed established traditions. Is Steve Jobs any different, even with Apple's Think Different campaigns? No, not really. Both are extremely wealthy, and feel they 'earned' it.

'Money' has been in short supply in every community on Earth, regardless of what it was physically made of, the political structure, the advancement of technology or the abundance of natural resources.

The way we handle money is the problem, and everybody handles it exactly the same way. The rich handle more money, but they don't handle it any differently than the poor. Everybody buys low and sells high, including myself.

More transactions = more wealth IF every transaction is to your advantage. But, when you make many transactions and are losing money on each one, the the big guys fall just the same as everybody else. Apple gains, somebody else loses, etc. We are all caught in the same loop, regardless of our position within the loop.
You can only see the height of a mountain from its valley.


The radical myth towards which the helix aspires is beyond the desire for money or power, yet which has greater returns than all the power and money in the world could not achieve.
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Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy » Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:21 pm

It's not "the rich" per se... it's a demographic of that group... the ones who make decisions, finance politicians who develop policy, find loopholes in existing regulation, or develop new 'territory' without existing regulation so certain aspects of human nature can run rampant.

Like the idea of defining debt as commodity.

And now, in a profound act of extortion, the middle class has to float the economy, or else...
The way we handle money is the problem, and everybody handles it exactly the same way. The rich handle more money, but they don't handle it any differently than the poor. Everybody buys low and sells high, including myself.
I totally disagree. The poor aren't even part of the equation. The middle class are forced to adhere to regulations and provide a socialistic solution to a capitalistic problem.

Again.

The plutocracy does as it will.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas
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Post by SteveC » Wed Oct 08, 2008 1:28 am

I agree the poor are not part of the equation, and are the biggest victims of the current system. But look at somebody like Washington who overthrew who was on his neck, but did nothing to free those on whose neck he stood. That double-standard is rampant in the middle-class, too, not just the aristocratic class.

All the homeowners who are complaining about the dropping value of their home, think helping the homeless is somebody elses problem. But it is their desire for home value inflation that is making people homeless. In effect, they are pricing their own kids out of the neighborhood, not the 'market.' The middle-class is the market.

Wall Street is funded with the pensions of school teachers, union laborers and small businesses. Yes, they may get fleeced by the gatekeeper, but they walked through the door by their own free will.

The poor don't have savings, insurance, 401k's etc.; those are all middle-class financial mechanisms. "Compassionate' people are trying to get the poor into the ponzi scheme (health insurance, etc) but health insurance is not health care. A pension does nothing to stop inflation. Charity is not a substitute for not taking too much originally, especially when it is just taking from the rich, rather than from oneself.

The unions, like the rich, take care of themselves first. Democracy is based on 'me first,' so it isn't a surprise, is it? Everybody wants a raise in their revenue, but that money always has to come from somebody else.

The problem isn't the people of any particular group. It is the system itself which drives the people; all people.
You can only see the height of a mountain from its valley.


The radical myth towards which the helix aspires is beyond the desire for money or power, yet which has greater returns than all the power and money in the world could not achieve.
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Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy » Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:44 am

Democracy is "me first?" I don't think so. It can degenerate into that, but that's not it's heart and soul.

We've had the discussion before, so no use in belaboring the point, but at the risk of poking your anti-founder sentiment...
Unless the mass retains sufficient control over those entrusted with the powers of their government, these will be perverted to their own oppression, and to the perpetuation of wealth and power in the individuals and their families selected for the trust. ~Thomas Jefferson
As far as I'm concerned, the Republican Party is best defined by;
Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason, and the mind becomes a wreck. ~Thomas Jefferson
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas
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Post by nandu » Wed Oct 08, 2008 3:54 pm

Shaw's quote, which I posted earlier, sums up democracy very nicely: it's a method of ensuring that a country gets the government it deserves.

It is self sustaining: once a country becomes a democracy, it is very difficult for it to slide back into a totalitarian form. With all its faults, democracy is the best system of government we have had so far in history.

There was an interesting article by a Pakistani journalist (I forget the name) comparing India and Pakistan after independence, very much to Pakistan's disadvantage. In the end, he signed off with the following statement:

"There is only one major difference between the two countries:the Indians elect their leaders."

Very perceptive!
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu
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Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:52 pm

[Sarah Palin] represents a fatal cancer to the Republican party. When I first started in journalism, I worked at the National Review for Bill Buckley. And Buckley famously said he'd rather be ruled by the first 2,000 names in the Boston phone book than by the Harvard faculty. But he didn't think those were the only two options. He thought it was important to have people on the conservative side who celebrated ideas, who celebrated learning. And his whole life was based on that, and that was also true for a lot of the other conservatives in the Reagan era. Reagan had an immense faith in the power of ideas. But there has been a counter, more populist tradition, which is not only to scorn liberal ideas but to scorn ideas entirely. And I'm afraid that Sarah Palin has those prejudices. I think President Bush has those prejudices. ~David Brooks
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas
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Post by Ned Kelly » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:29 am

Homer Simpson:

"Don't worry about your future, Bart! We'll be the world's number one superpower for the rest of the century! (pause) Um, we're China, right?"
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Post by vhhancock » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:46 am

I've been wondering how to approach an understanding of the various financial crises, and at last I've found it:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-fr ... 946197D6CF

Vince
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Post by Ned Kelly » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:04 am

In 2009-2013, Ren and Stimpy will dance for "Hope" and "Change":

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=xY03n3QCLes
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Post by Ned Kelly » Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:26 am

Not a quote, but here's something for our times. As so many Americans are overly-medicated on myriad psychoactive prescription drugs - um I prefer old-fashioned non-prescription drugs, 8) - well, I'm reminded of this cartoon of "Crazy Pete". His paranoia about "the Zionists" is something that seems to be escalating in America, as well as his belief that God talks to him directly:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ikgI9xA4uuY
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Post by Clemsy » Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:52 pm

Maybe someday soon our leaders no longer will have to shuffle in shame when they’re caught with brains in their heads. ~Nicholas Kristoff
:lol:
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas
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Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy » Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:30 pm

You cannot believe how many people have told me to call them on January 20. [They say,] 'You wanna know about abuses and violations? Call me then. LINK ~Seymour Hersh
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas
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Post by SteveC » Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:01 pm

Clemsy wrote:
We've had the discussion before, so no use in belaboring the point, but at the risk of poking your anti-founder sentiment...
The 'founders' were never of one mind. Like today, there were lots of different opinions, and the neo-cons won. Kill your way to peace and prosperity, set up a strong central government (police state) etc.

Then, as now, it was very much a case of 'they know not what they do.'

I will leave God to judge their souls, but their actions were pretty obvious. They were confident that they were wiser than the king, yet they could not rule any better.

Psalm 118:22
The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone;

When Obama praises them, like everybody else, he is drinking Kool-Aid. It is an untrue story. There is a huge difference between myth as heroic story and myth as untrue. The neo-cons were never victims of the King or the Native Americans (or Iraq,) except in their own delusions. They created their own enemies and their own heroes.
You can only see the height of a mountain from its valley.


The radical myth towards which the helix aspires is beyond the desire for money or power, yet which has greater returns than all the power and money in the world could not achieve.
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Post by Ned Kelly » Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:10 pm

Steve C wrote:
When Obama praises them, like everybody else, he is drinking Kool-Aid.
YES! GOOD ON YA!

And here is a funny clip about "drinking the Kool-Aid", and I think even those of our JCF friends who admire Obama, will get a good laugh out of it:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP1USaPMXpI
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