Dragons in the East and West

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Post by RDCharlton » Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:28 pm

Nandu,
Thank you for the clarification. I wasn't trying to suggest that snake worship was introduced by this myth, my apologies for being unclear. I was simply attempting to trace the path of this particular dragon myth, from one of co-existence, to one of conquering/destruction, and seeing the Krishan/Kaliya myth as a kind of meeting point between the eastern and western motifs. Only one thread in the vast tapestry of the serpent/dragon mythology we have been discussing, I know. I should have been clearer.

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Post by nandu » Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:48 am

Bear,

Your point is still valid. In the east, the Dragon/Serpent is neither good nor evil, but a being of incredible power, whereas in the vest it is an evil monster to be vanquished.

Nandu.
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Post by RDCharlton » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:36 am

I have been contemplating the Dragon as archetypes of the unconscious and I found myself beginning to wonder if the dragon should be seen AS the unconscious or rather as a guardian/captor of the unconscious. I wrestled with this for some time, and finally began to wonder if this wasn't where the real difference between the eastern and western motifs lay.

It seems to be that in the east, the dragon is seen as a personification of the unconscious, but in the west we see the dragon as a foe keeping us from accessing the riches of the unconscious. IOW, in the west the dragon MUST be overcome in order for us to be whole. But this is not the case in the east, for the existence of the dragon is necessary to the wholeness of the being and its destruction would actually be a disaster.

It is not necessary that one motif be right and one motif be wrong. They both are simply what they are, yes?

Thoughts?

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Post by bodhibliss » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:20 pm

RDCharlton wrote:I have been contemplating the Dragon as archetypes of the unconscious and I found myself beginning to wonder if the dragon should be seen AS the unconscious or rather as a guardian/captor of the unconscious. I wrestled with this for some time, and finally began to wonder if this wasn't where the real difference between the eastern and western motifs lay.
I think you're on to something.

Why can't it be both?

Embracing paradox is a necessary adjunct to seeing with a mythic eye. If we try to pin a motif down to one correct interpretation, we lose so much. Much of the time, how we engage a myth depends on where we're standing at the time (like the blind men and the elephant).

Myth On,
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Post by RDCharlton » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:04 pm

bodhibliss wrote:[
Why can't it be both?

[/b][/i]
Of course you are correct.

I fell into a trap I thought I left far behind, along with my religious dogma, many years ago. I became singlemindedly focused on one person's view, in this case, Herr Jung, of what an archetype was and began attempting to interpret the meaning of myth according to a single archetype.

How foolish is that?

I suppose a bit more explanation is in order. My main interest is in the application of myth to the realm of psychology, hence my referencing Dr. Jung. So it is all the more foolish for me to attempt to extract hard answers when "Art AND Science" is what we live by.

Bottom line is that myth is likely far more Rorschach Inkblot Test (which allows you to see whatever you want to see) than Western Personality Inventory (which asks a very large number of hard questions to provide a precise picture of your personality).

Anyway, thanks for your input BB. Like another character, though fictional, and carrying the same initials coinincidentally, you have provided me with wisdom and corrected my path. Now I have a whole new Mirky Wood to explore. I will attempt to avoid the very large spiders!

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Dragons = Subconscious

Post by Samarra » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:42 pm

Bear,

I also think you’re on to something. I had a similar moment of epiphany in the shower the other day:

Dragons = Subconscious

The Eastern philosophies are all about finding balance between the conscious and the subconscious (Joe calls them “ego” and “shadow”):

ImageImage

The shadow can be a VERY POWERFUL consciousness – believe me. I am bipolar and have had many battles with my dragon. In past throes of paranoid delusions, it had almost consumed me. Thank goodness for medication and meditation which now keep me balanced.

If we, in the West, view our shadow as “bad” because of fears and desires collected throughout our entire lives, then it becomes an evil dragon to be conquered. If however, we make peace with our past and use that sub-consciousness to empower, like they do in the East, it’s an entirely different relationship.

So I would propose that it is the RELATIONSHIP with your subconscious that determines what your dragon looks like. The great thing is that relationships can always be changed. Look, it’s easy:

Image
Image
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Post by Lizpete » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:31 pm

Sorry to break into a well established conversation, but I can't resist. (Some of the artwork that I like best of what I saw in Japan is of dragons.- Yeah, I like the old (old) stuff.)

It seems to me that Japanese dragons differ quite a bit from "Western" dragons. They are small, comic creatures that bring good luck. They cavort in the air with large eyes and long tails and are actually cute. Don't know about individual vs. collective, but the Japanese style ones seem to hang out and play together.

Put a different spin into the conversation?
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Dragons: Puff and otherwise.

Post by Bliss 5150 » Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:03 pm

You are attempting to interpret “two” cultures who not only speak completely different languages from each other but would seem alien to even ourselves.

That is either incredibly foolish or incredibly commendable. One of my colleagues has even thought about trying to write a book on this subject. He had given up when he could see he was committing academic suicide.

In reading this post, I would like to commend all of you for really trying to tackle this prodigious subject.

Yikes! This is one of those things that all words will fail in any attempt to explain. Nevertheless, trying to explain China, Ancient China, Ancient Territories of China, The Near East, The Middle East, The Far East, and Japan in English.

The problems inherently lie in the terms, “Dragon” “Evil” and “East”. Never mind the alien culture of Europe, that is very different to this day.

Think of it. There is still great debate from scholars about relatively recent things such as Shakespeare.
(We do know that saying “Get Thee To A Nunnery” meant whorehouse back then).

So to get back to your original question:
I have been contemplating the differences between the way dragons are presented in western myths vs. eastern myths. I suppose it is no wonder, since so very much is different between the eastern and western perspectives. I would love to get some input from this group, both regarding the differences on the dragon myths specifically and what they represent, as well as the differences between east and west in general.
What are we calling a Dragon? I have never liked the interpretation of “Dragon” in either the Near East, Middle East, or Far East. It has always bugged me, in the similar vein how “Kami” is usually translated into “God(s)”.

Dragon is one such resplendent image, reaching back through faery tale and myth into the distant and barely discernable past. From the “lion-birds” at the portals of a shrine to the serpent-god Ningishzida whose image is engraved on the libation vase of King Gudea of Lagash in ancient Sumer,
c. 2000 B.C., to Bilbo Baggins’s theft of the Arkenstone from the dragon Smaug in Tolkien’s The Hobbit (a span of some four thousand years), the dragon guards the way to Other-Worldly realms.

Apollo slays the sacred Python at Delphi, and Perseus rescues Andromeda from the sea dragon; in India, Inra impales the serpent-monster Vritra with a thunderbolt; in Christian tradition the archangel Michael casts down “the Dragon” from heaven; and Europe must have long suffered from a draconian epidemic, as heroes from Siegried to Tristan to St. George seem to bump into the
beasts at every turn of the corner.
The question you're asking is almost in the similar vein of “...the differences between the way gods are represented in western myths vs. eastern myths.”

This is difficult and has no such thing as a clear answer. I will not even pretend to have an answer. But I believe, if I may be so bold, to rephrase your question, to “the differences in gods between the pagan Europe, the middle east, and far east...” it may point you in a better direction.

And neither do I, exactly, but it is – there. I mean the evidence of the different psychology of East and West. Here is how it relates to the attitude toward the dragon. (From BB’s essay)
Painting with the broadest of strokes. There is a fundamental difference between an occidental and an Asian. There are a number of books I can recommend about this. However, if you really wish to understand the difference between Dragons you must read:

THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PSYCHOLOGY AND RELIGION
The articles, which will range from short definitions of 100 words, to entries of up to 2000 words, will include standard working terms in the fields of psychology (e.g., anima, superego, self, archetype) and religion (e.g., pilgrimage, prayer, ablution, ritual, martyrdom, conversion, rites), significant figures in the dialogue between religion and psychology (e.g., Freud, Jung, James, Eliade), and religious figures who loom large in the convergence of these fields (e.g., Augustine, Black Elk, Rumi, Teresa of Avila). Entries will be drawn from a wide variety of religious traditions, not only the modern world religions, such as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism, but also, e.g., African Animism, pre-Christian Celtic and Germanic traditions, Egyptian, Greek, Gnostic, and Native North American and Mesoamerican religious movements.


Many people carry with them the innate fear of snakes. (remember Indiana Jones?, “I hate snakes”.) Calling someone a reptile or a cold blooded snake is not a kind thing to say to someone. Think it would be a kind thing to say in China?
Yes. However, Young Indy was not originally afraid of snakes. Remember the third installment? He develops his fear of snakes whilst running through a circus train. In other words, the psychological make up varies from one person to the next. Some of us may have no “fear” of a dragon. Some of us may actually identify with the dragon instead of the hero. Can you see it from the dragon's point of view:

You sleeping in your home, or large cave, and suddenly someone breaks in and wants to rob or kill you. Well what do you do?

Furthermore if you were to call someone, like myself a snake in China, I would more than likely think you are referring to my Chinese zodiac or some trait of being born in the hour of the snake. In the “West” it would be like saying, “Aquarius.” But in the middle east, the term will get someone to punch you.
In the West, the dragon only takes on the evil aspect. We, battling against nature, our own nature, original sin, and inner struggle projected outward. But how can this situation not have a manifestation
in Chinese mythology. I have to learn more about Chinese mythology.
Not entirely. In Pagan Europe the Dragon was a sleeping large animal. Later on, with the help of the Near East, and by that I mean Levant, it was turned into a monster. Materialism is a wonderful value, that only has been shunned by “our Eastern Teachers”. “What should I do with this money? Oh, give it to you. Of course. This world is only a result of some illusion/fall/paradox/mind/punishment.”

In Beowulf, the Dragon has been robbed. Beowulf knows that the dragon is not evil, but was robbed by a man, who he holds at fault for the Dragon's reign of terror. And, again what would any of us do if we were robbed? Now why do I choose Beowulf? Because, it represents a very altered Christian text, like the Christians did with almost every pagan text they could not entirely destroy. Beowulf only wishes to look upon his treasure when he dies. Therefore, Beowulf, still maintains the fundamental European spirit, not the alien one of the Levant that has been laid atop of it.

There are examples of good dragons, although very few that have survived Christianity's revisionism.

In the Mabinogion story Lludd and Llefelys, the red dragon fights with an invading White Dragon. And these dragons actually represented tribes-people. (Maybe the Saxons and perhaps the Normans). I am unsure of that one. But here you have two European tribes identifying with dragons. Clearly, here you have pagan Europe identifying themselves as powerful forces, rather than evil.

But, you ask, “Bliss 5150 you make some bold claims. What proof of this do yea have?”

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Evil is another word that does not really translate into Chinese. It gives a false impression. For instance. The Japanese and Chinese usually use the English word Sin as synonymous with Crime. There are tails of Chinese dragons causing great destruction chasing a jewel throughout the sky.

Image

It may be best to replace “evil” with “dangerous” when thinking of the Chinese dragons in the Chinese language.

But, since I classify this language as “Open” meaning that it could change at anytime, like all Chinese language does, it is best not to always associate dangerous and evil as synonymous.

Image

Image

Separately, the first character here does mean "danger" or "to endanger" and the second character can mean "opportunity".

However, I want to debunk a myth that was propagated by some westerners who did not have a clear understanding of Asian languages...

While often, Chinese/Japanese/Korean compound words (words of two or more characters) are the sum of their parts, this is not always the case. The compound is often understood with a completely different meaning than the two characters individually.

Many have said that the Chinese/Japanese/Korean word for Crisis is made up of the characters for "danger" and "opportunity". This is true when phrased this way.
However, it's not absolutely correct to say that "danger + opportunity = crisis" in Asian cultures.

English example:
If I tell you that...
Bovine creature + Guy behind the plate in baseball = Locomotive protection
...you would think I was mad. But consider that "cow + catcher = cowcatcher", which is the device that used to be found on steam engines to protect them if they hit an animal on the tracks. When we hear the word "cowcatcher" we don't separate the words into their individual meanings (necessarily).
The same is true with the word for crisis in Chinese/Japanese/Korean. While you can separate the characters, few Asian people would automatically do so in their minds.

The final answer:
It is a half-truth to say, "danger plus opportunity equals crisis" in Chinese/Japanese/Korean. Use this statement and concept with caution.

Also, the second character can mean "secret" or "machine" depending on context so I guess you have to say "a dangerous machine = crisis" or "danger + a secret = crisis". Both of these are only slightly more ridiculous than the first premise.
One might also say that rice is the primary grain source in the east, wheat in the west, then attempt to claim there is a causal link with the individualist/collectivist mindset.
Actually, you're 1000% wrong here (As you can see, I have never taken a statistics class in my life). ;) The Japanese believe, and I was told this first hand while a fellow at Tokyo University, that there is no way the Japanese can import rice. Why? Because they are Japanese. And in being Japanese they have a completely different digestive system than the rest of the world. If you were to import rice, one would need to refit all of Japan with new pipes and sewers, because of the different rice. I at first thought he was kidding. Welcome to Japan. This is taught even in the Japanese school system. The Japanese are a collective that is different than the rest of the world. It is ingrained in them, and Japanese science (I, personally, think is sometimes an oxymoron at best) is always there to defend this finding. And my friends in China, always will remind me that the Chinese are “Asian” and the Japanese are “Japanese”. Meaning they think of themselves something superior and different than the rest of the Orient. This idea of something as simple as rice, also has profound effects on their economy and laws. Specifically protectionism and isolationism that is very much a part of Japan today.

While in the west, usually, although times are changing here too, will import and export Wheat under trading bloc organization. England doesn't care where the wheat came from, chances are it was America, where America supplies 90% of it's wheat, as long as it is cheap and delicious.
Several Japanese commentators (for example, then Agriculture Minister Tsutomu Hata, in 1987) have made the superficially plausible claim that Japanese intestines are qualitatively and quantitatively different from those of other humans and are, on average, significantly longer than those of non-Japanese people. This claim, which has been used to bolster the alleged uniqueness of the Japanese people...
Let us all remember, that information you may deem useless or of no correlation to yourself, may not be of some great use to a man of prodigious genius and destiny.
I think a stronger case can be made for the eastern penchant for yin/yang and tendancy for comprehending everything as energies with which we must work. Even Chinese medicine is based upon this idea of energies in balance, where western medicine is all about eradicating the bad stuff, only now beginning to touch on the idea of balance. This, in spite of the patriarchal tendencies of the society as a whole
.

Chinese medicine is a bit of a shame. I say this because people are dying and refuse to admit it. They can be helped, but this idea of balance and yin yang is killing them. For instance, in China, HIV or AIDS only can come from foreigners – usually Americans and Europeans. Hence they are at “balance” and there is no need for medicines which the government will not provide, even IF (and that is a BIG “IF”) HIV was recognized in the Chinese.

Furthermore, how is this balance achieved. Most of the time, in practices most of us, would see as medieval. Sticking pins into you, having pots sucked to your back, and eating some kind of herbs.

Let us not forget that our immune system is at a constant war with everything in nature. And thankfully, it terminates with extreme prejudice. It clearly recognizes I am at two with nature.

I have worked with the Asia Society on this, and consider myself quite an accurate source. But, as a man cannot bear witness to a will he is heir to, here is a link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzxWQYmAT4U



Quote:
Medicine is a good example. I’ve heard that we are creating a great deal of trouble with all the antibiotics we are using – because to use them too much is to encourage the enemy bacteria to adapt and come back stronger.
The opposite holds true here. Malaria has been eradicated in the United States due to an extreme policy by the Mosquito Commission's Mosquito Eradication Policy. There is a greater danger of a virus like HIV or bacteria mutating, by being left untreated, into something new.

Case in point, in Hawai'i, the population here, largely Asian, simply does not go to the doctor. Or traditional “Western” doctor. The result has been a new variation of venereal disease that have mutated and do not respond to any antibiotics that have treated the older genus' strains.
I’ve heard that the Jinn of Arabian legend are sort of like angels that can be malevolent or benevolent.
Yes, Dragons, like gods, are best thought of in this context. Djinn are extremely dangerous. We would call Iblis a Djinn. He would be the analog to Satan. Are you beginning to see the Levant link yet to the dragon?

It seems to me that we have developed the tendency to develop something like the "Noble Savage" idea, except in regards to the eastern mindset. That is, we see only the good aspects of collectivism and ignore the bad, while seeing only the negative aspects of individualism. Yet many well respected philosophers thought that individualism was the apex of contribution, almost that individualism was the height of collectivism.
I would say that often the Occidental sometimes hates himself a little too much, and is too easily seduced by the East. Occidental practitioners of Buddhism, often completely misunderstand it, and usually fillet themselves. That is something one most be very well aware of when studying the far East.

Remember this lovely quote from the Chinese concept of Legalism:
If in a country there are the following ten evils: rites, music, odes, history, virtue, moral culture, filial piety, brotherly duty, integrity and sophistry, the ruler cannot make the people fight and dismemberment is inevitable; and this brings extinction in its train. If the country has not these ten things and the ruler can make the people fight, he will be so prosperous that he will attain supremacy. A country where the virtuous govern the wicked, will suffer from disorder, so that it will be dismembered; but a country where the wicked govern the virtuous, will be orderly, so that it will become strong. A country which is administered by the aid of odes, history, rites, music, filial piety, brotherly duty, virtue and moral culture, will, as soon as the enemy approaches, be dismembered; if he does not approach, the country will be poor. But if a country is administered without these eight , the enemy dares not approach, and even if he should, he would certainly be driven off when it mobilizes its army and attacks, it will capture its objective, and having captured it, will be able to hold it; when it holds its army in reserve, and makes no attack, it will be rich. A country that loves force is said to attack with what is difficult; a country that loves words is said to attack with what is easy. A country that attacks with what is difficult will gain ten points for every one point that it undertakes, whereas a country that attacks with what is easy will lose a hundred men for every ten that it marches out.
We live in a terminal moraine of Dragons. These powerful mythological archetypes have been in constant flux. (At one point there were unicorns in the Bible. But newer revisions by The Holy See call them oxen or buffalo.)

And the problem is, you have different “Dragons” ( a term which I have not been entirely comfortable with using for all “dragon-like” creatures) clashing into each other, that were never intended to do as such.

You are 1000% right on the money here:
Perhaps I am remembering this incorrectly, and if so I am open to correction, but as I remember it, the broader eastern view of dragons was that they were not necessarily jovial beings, but rather keepers of great power, and that power could be expressed in either destructive or constructive manners, though they were primarily protective/guardian in their natures. It seems to me that the dragon was associated with weather, and as such could bring life to crops or destructive floods and tornadoes, thus a very Yin/Yang kind of expression. I think they were also representative of both aspects of fortune, good and bad. And I think this balance carried from Asian nation to nation. Again, I may be remembering this incorrectly, so if anyone has specific references which correct this, please let me know.
To put it simply that is because of the Chinese, as an agricultural society, would see no need to kill great power who may bring great fortune. The Tao of waiting it out and seeing if you get a better hand next time. And what I mean by next time is another life.

The dragon in pagan Europe represents the same wonderful power of nature. However, Europe was a waring and hunting society with a limited agriculture base. Hence, the dragon, can give great bounty if slain, much like an animal. Sometimes it even has a treasure.

Usually though, they require some sort of activation, rarely do they just awaken. As opposed to the Chinese dragon, who is always doing something when he is not sleeping in the swamps.

If one wishes a long and arduous road of scholarship, you may understand Eastern Dragons better than “Guardians of the Swamp.”

To answer your question:
I have been contemplating the differences between the way dragons are presented in western myths vs. eastern myths. I suppose it is no wonder, since so very much is different between the eastern and western perspectives. I would love to get some input from this group, both regarding the differences on the dragon myths specifically and what they represent, as well as the differences between east and west in general.


In the most honest and blunt way possible, it is only the way you, as an individual, see the differences. And that is unique unto you, something no one can tell you is correct or wrong. Who is it that slays the dragon and drinks of his blood (taking communion from a dragon?) and then hears the song of nature?

Now who am I to tell Siegfried what he hears?
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Post by noman » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:12 pm

Wow! Thanks Bliss5150.

About the Japanese rice myth.

It was about 1990. There was a lot of Japan bashing going on. It happened that Japan’s economy was soaring while USA was in a recession. So, point the finger of blame somehow. “They won’t buy our rice”, was the complaint even though it’s the kind of rice they like. It’s really funny, how childish and jealous Americans can get – even with all our wealth and prosperity.

I heard from an economist, speaking in the 90s, that trade between Japan and US represents 2% of these two large economies. As though it’s really going to help if the Japanese buy American rice. But the explanation I heard for why Japan protects its rice farmers, is to protect themselves against the possibility of some type of future trauma. And that makes a lot of sense to me. When you’ve got 120,000,000 people in a place one third the size of California you have to take precautions. You don’t want to depend too much on a foreign food supply.

I laughed when I heard recently that the three American automakers should be saved because they came through in two world wars and perhaps they might be needed again. As if we don’t manufacture foreign cars in this country.

Anyway, the Japan bashing ended quickly in the early 90s when Japan’s economy tanked and Americans could feel smug. I never heard about the Japanese explanation though, that they are biologically disposed to eating only Japanese rice. Protectionism propaganda is always entertaining.

About dragon-language

We were discussing recently in another thread the use of metaphors in different cultures or subcultures. But even speaking as literally as possible can be a problem. A Taiwanese roommate of mine once told me he had a problem with the words ‘mother’s milk’. He said the liquid that comes from an animal and the liquid that comes from a woman are two completely different things in his mind. One has to make this psycho-cultural transition.

And that’s the great joy and education of ethnic studies. But you’re right - the solution to the two dragon problem will only be solved through an understanding of language – and in effect, the culture.

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5150

Post by Samarra » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:42 pm

Bliss5150,

You're either crazy, or a Van Halen fan... or both, like me!

:D
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Post by Lizpete » Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:56 pm

Well, I have only some simple thoughts after that complex presentation.

I thought it was said (by Campbell?) that the concept of dragons originated in the "East" coming over to the "West" where they were re-shaped to fit legends of great knights and battles. Kinda reminds me of fish stories- the one that got away... (Except it happened a long time ago in a distant place and they had a very good meal.) Or of giant squids capturing entire sailing vessles.

Perhaps in the same way manatees are now thought to be the real mermaids. (Funny, they don't look very human like, but I guess after many months at sea on a creaky wooden ship with a bad diet...)

Sort of a whisper down the land meets the need for a really good story.

___
As for the Japanese rice and 90's:

Um, 80's-90's The US was in recession and Japan was encouraging America to not care about the huge deficits we had and were racking up- that Japan could carry us. Now you'd have to also know that culturally being in debt is not a good thing in Japan. There is a dark tradition of people not being able to clear their debts by New Years (the time for starting anew in Japan) and committing suicide because of it. So the encouragement, supportiveness or over our debts whatever seemed (and seems) very odd, especially for a friend [nation.]

As for the rice thing- the strains of rice grown in CA were originally from Japan. The Japanese rejected this rice along with other kinds of rice grown in Asia- they wanted only the kind grown in Japan of which the harvest was horrible. Now I can understand when you eat rice 3x a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year you might be mighty particular about the flavor, but rejecting all others (even some close hits) seems more than mere snobbishness. Stores were actually giving Non-Japanese grown rice away at the time of crisis because it would not sell, and even then it was rejected. (On the other hand if you were a foreigner and not so particular you could have rice cheaply, er freely, and well...)
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Post by Neoplato » Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:26 pm

Over the last couple of months I've come to the conclusion that dragons of the east represent the "veiled being", or what I call "that which is life" or in neoplatonic terms "the one". Dragons in the west appear to be the "guardians" to the collective unconscious or overcoming the ego which will lead to greater understanding.

To me, if we defeat the dragon of the west, we made be able to conceive of a "dragon of the east". Does anyone share this opinion?
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Post by RDCharlton » Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:36 pm

I am definitely leaning towards that same view. I think is given further credence in that in the east there is more of a tendency towards cooperative work with the unconscious through meditation, etc., and in the west we tend to do battle and be at odds with our unconscious. This is seen in how the myth is commonly portrayed.

In later years, in the west, while there has been an awakening of awareness of the importance of the unconscious, our stories have begun to shift and there have been many, many more which have begun to portray dragons in a kinder light, even pairing men with dragons. Think of Peter, Paul, and Mary’s Puff the Magic Dragon, Dragonheart, the cataclysmic events resulting from the slaying of Smog in The Hobbit, and I could go on and on.

While there remains a strong theme of dragons as monsters which must be slain, there seems to be some shift occurring.
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Post by noman » Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:24 pm

Let’s not forget the dragon in Shrek I who fell in love with the donkey played by Eddie Murphy and relieved the kingdom of a tyrant.

I like Bliss5150s idea of the dragon as a symbol of ‘power’, good and evil being a secondary matter.

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