Is Man Part of Nature

Do you have a conversation topic that doesn't seem to fit any of the other conversations? Here is where we discuss ANYTHING about Joseph Campbell, comparative mythology, and more!

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Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:46 am

The truth is we humans are still the underdog and probably always will be.
We are neither underdogs nor overlords when it comes to life on this planet. Nature doesn't care one whit about human beings, and it's this that our species tends to deny, that as a particular type of living organism we're no more special than any other in the scheme of things. Nature can and will take care of itself, thank you very much, and if ultimately human beings turn out to be no more than a flash in the cosmic pan, so be it, life will go on.

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung
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romansh
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Post by romansh » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:10 am

noman wrote: But the first definition gives it’s opposite artificial: (from L. artificium "making by art, craft,")
Hi like the idea of something without art or craft ... but a couple of things at least fall a foul of this concept I suspect:

Image
Are you saying there is no craft in this nest?

And even the humble caddisfly larvae will build a house out of stone or other building materials that are lying around.
Image
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romansh
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Post by romansh » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:31 am

Evinnra wrote: I don't know Cyb-Bro, are you saying that one can naturally develop resentment against someone who harms one? .... What is not natural is to be vengeful IF the harm was done unintentionally.
So some emotions may be natural and others not? ... Does not seem to make sense to me Cyber Sis :)

But I would agree resentfulness and vengefulness are not terribly good strategies. But you have read the Selfish Gene and from an evolutionary perspective these emotions have their place. (Remember the Prisoners' Dilema and tit for tat?)
Evinnra wrote: The greatest problem - as I see it - with stating that inteligent people do not believe in free will is that this claim assumes that intelligent people will have no accountability for their intentions.
There is a difference between being accountable and being held accountable. It seems unfair but evolution does not care. But this is where the above discussion on vengefulness comes in handy. Compassion during holding someone accountable ... so to speak.
Evinnra wrote: I have read the full interview, which you recommended to Cindy on the previous page of this topic. The interview was very clear and persuasive and on the end it was admitted that human life is rather bleak without free will. We can not develop meaningful relationships with each other if we could not take it for granted that people love/like us by their own choice . (Well, this is very simply put, the argument is really worth reading!)
What the realization that you have excited all sorts of hormones in your perspective partner's body and he has no choice but to adore you is bleak? :lol:

Ahh we do make our own heaven and hell.
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Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:36 am

"And we got to get ourselves back to the garden"

My garden has spiders in it. From an insect's point of view it's a kind of hell.
Tsk, tsk, Watson. That metaphor does not deserve such abuse! Besides, one can disagree. As long as we're personifying the little buggers, I'd say they would most definitely appreciate the nature of things, as it were. After all, where would we be if our ancestors weren't more clever than their predators? Ah, life was simple then! Now it's, "Damn! After all that we may off ourselves? What the hell?" :lol:
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas
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romansh
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Post by romansh » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:41 am

Andreas wrote: Again I cannot help it but see the practical application all these concepts have in real life.

Anyway I want to apologize to you and Evinnra if I was a bit frustrated :).
Hi Andreas ... no apology necessary ... you had no choice .... :lol: :lol: :lol: 8)

I agree with regarding the practicality of dualistic thought and language. But I find for me it's a short cut. I find it interesting in a conversation, if I catch myself saying good or bad, I start wondering what exactly did I mean by this. This of course allows my friend to get a few words in before I hog the conversation again.
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Post by richard silliker » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:44 am

S_Watson
My garden has spiders in it. From an insect's point of view it's a kind of hell.
Not according to Miss Spider's Sunny Patch Friends.


RS
"We sacrifice the whole truth of any given experience for the value to which we are constrained".
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Post by Cindy B. » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:51 am

richard silliker wrote:Not according to Miss Spider's Sunny Patch Friends.
:mrgreen:
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung
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romansh
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Post by romansh » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:55 am

richard silliker wrote:S_Watson
My garden has spiders in it. From an insect's point of view it's a kind of hell.
Not according to Miss Spider's Sunny Patch Friends.
Sorry Richard ... I could not find a reference to this in copy of of KJV?
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Post by richard silliker » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:46 am

romansh
Sorry Richard ... I could not find a reference to this in copy of of KJV?
It is there, you just have to be able to decode the scriptures. Check at Wal-Mart, I managed to get one (a decoder) at the K-mart during a blue-light special for a very decent price.

PS. Take care not to buy the Chinese made one.

Stay in touch and let me know how you made out.

PS. I must tell you now that I do not take kindly to loaning my copy...so do not even think of asking!

RS
Last edited by richard silliker on Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
"We sacrifice the whole truth of any given experience for the value to which we are constrained".
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Post by noman » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:02 am

Romansh,

Birds do it, bees do it, even educated spiders do it:

Image


And so do human beings:

Image
Nagasaki, 15 August, 1945

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Nagasaki, 1945
The memorials in Hiroshima and Nagasaki contain lists of the names of the hibakusha (‘explosion-affected people’) who are known to have died since the bombings. Updated annually on the anniversaries of the bombings, as of August 2009 the memorials record the names of more than 410,000 hibakusha—263,945 in Hiroshima and 149,226 in Nagasaki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bom ... d_Nagasaki
But don’t worry – because everything we do is – natural.

- NoMan
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Post by noman » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:40 am

We are neither underdogs nor overlords when it comes to life on this planet.

- Cindy
Yes, from a Gaia’s-eye view. A mother does not play favorites. We are only one of an estimated one billion species that have ever existed. But from a human-eye view we have a vested interest in perpetuating one particular species. That is why we are an underdog in this never ending game of survival.

(the one billion estimated number of species is pulled out of thin air. Nobody even knows how many species exist on earth at present. Estimates range from 10 million to 100 million. The average life span of a species – about 4 million years. An earth of highly diversified multi-cellular life – about 500 million years. These are all guesses. We just don’t know.)

- NoMan
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Post by Andreas » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:26 am

Hi Andreas ... no apology necessary ... you had no choice ....
:lol: :lol:

Tell me Romansh, when we create our own hell or heaven do we have a choice?

This is a damn fine conversation by the way. The Matrix comes in my mind in so many opinions here. That is why I love storytelling.
The idea that we can "destroy" nature is laughable, as Michael Crichton rightfully pointed out in Jurassic Park. We can make it unlivable for ourselves, which is what we are currently doing. We have no control over nature; we only hallucinate that we have.
Nandu there is another good point Crichton makes in Jurassic Park. He says "I don't blame people for their mistakes but I do ask to pay for them." and so does the explorer pays for his mistakes. Like you said lets hope the next generations don't pay for our mistakes.
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki
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Post by S_Watson » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:15 am

Andreas
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Post by Andreas » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:19 am

“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki
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Post by jonsjourney » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:16 am

noman...

Your ability to pervert the ideas of others to justify your own perspective is unparalleled!...maybe...I have been guilty of the same rhetorical technique.

for example...
(the one billion estimated number of species is pulled out of thin air. Nobody even knows how many species exist on earth at present. Estimates range from 10 million to 100 million. The average life span of a species – about 4 million years. An earth of highly diversified multi-cellular life – about 500 million years. These are all guesses. We just don’t know.) -noman
You seem unwilling to acknowledge the best estimates of science when it defeats your argument. Perhaps you prefer the judging father over the indifferent Gaia mother? Do we know who has the final word on what is Moral? Do we know who has the final word on what is Art? Do we know who has the final word on Truth?...Beauty?... Justice...

I know I am being ignored, but I will ask again...
We don't allow alleged criminals to judge themselves. Nor do we allow their alleged victims to make the call. True values can only be derived by transcending nature. -noman
Who is the creator of these edicts?

It is a simple question. Why not answer it?
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams
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