The Art of Discourse II

Do you have a conversation topic that doesn't seem to fit any of the other conversations? Here is where we discuss ANYTHING about Joseph Campbell, comparative mythology, and more!

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JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:30 am

Hey gang.

There are three things that seem to be really speaking to me on some of the difficulties I struggle with here: assumption; grammatical structure; patience. So often I find I think I know what someone is saying and in my desire to express I don't exercise enough patience to really make sure I have assimilated or gleaned what that person has really said. Then I slip on my own banana peel and have to go back and face the music and fix it.

Also another thing is composing the post; which to me is both agony and delight mixed with myopic frustration. I am trying to get better with sentence structure, grammer, and word choice; and still get my point across. The problem for me here is; ( and I know some of you may have this dilemma as well ); is the going back after you have edited and posted to either fix some error you spot or add something you forgot. ( There were several things Joe talked about concerning the editing process but I think also some of that may also vary with the indiviual's method. )

At any rate this is helpful to me just hearing others talk about it. 8)
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Post by Cindy B. » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:13 am

Do you make use of the preview function before you submit your posts, James? One can preview and revise as many times as wanted before submitting a post.

Still, revising or editing your post once on the board is fine, too, if necessary. Just give folks a heads up if substantial changes have been made so we're sure to reread and not miss out on your thoughts.

And something I do if I know that a post is going to be a long one, e.g., some of the Jungian material I've shared, is first create my post as a Word document and deal with it offline. Then I copy & paste it into the message body field. This way, though, requires adding bold, italics, offset quotes, etc. before submitting and regardless of having included them in the offline document, so be sure to preview before you submit. Notepad is an option, too, but I've never tried this one.

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung
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Post by jufa » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:32 am

CarmelaBear wrote:
jufa wrote:...the art of discourse becomes the art of condemnation.

Tarring & feathering comes in many forms in a civilized society. All, inclusive of I, have participated.

IMHObservation :)
Are we discussing particular instances of this, or is this hypothetical?

:?:
CarmelaBear, perhaps my opening best answers your question.
I've found intolerance of people's visions, understanding, and partiality to collectivism agreement the most aggrieving elements in "The Art of Discourse."
Specific instances have not been pointed to, nor spelled out. And the only person specified in my post is myself, saying I am guilty of all the supposition stated.
Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
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Post by jufa » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:15 am

Cindy B. wrote:Speaking for myself Jufa, if the poster's writing style is particularly unique, I sometimes have trouble understanding what the actual meaning may be that's trying to be conveyed. Often shorter sentences and more punctutation helps me in this case, particularly if the typical sentence structure is long and appears to be of the "stream of consciousness" style. Sometimes in such cases, but not always, of course, I'll not read the entire post because too many assumptions may be required to try to make sense of what the author intends. Varying educational levels has never been an issue for me, though.

Cindy :)
Writing styles, I have found, are always a problem Cindy. When they become a problem for me is when writer who do not generally write in the abstract, do so. For myself, who knows have an abstract style of writing, I find abstraction used in such instances out of place. Some of I.Kant's, Einstein's, T. Edison's and even yours [please do not take what I state about you condescending, Please.] when addressing some of Campbell's and Jung's presentation I just did not get. But then I turn to the subject matter and follow your particular flow of dialog, and I relate from that angle, but not to the wording and style presented.

Myself, I have trouble keeping up with my mind. Mostly when I write, I am a mile ahead of me, and I type trying not to loose the trend of thinking. I loose complete word placement and phases a lot, and I mean a lots. And when I return for proof reading, that in itself take me on another journey, and I'm lost. Figuring people will do as I do in observing and following the dialog, I assume understanding of my position will be had.

Enough of my sob story. :oops:
Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
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Post by Cindy B. » Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:26 am

I do know what you mean, Jufa, about the process and how when we're in the midst of it, in flow, so to speak, it's certainly not about structure and presentation... :wink:

Have you ever heard of this one? Consider using a tape recorder to capture your ideas rather than typing, and then transcribe and edit your work the next day or later. It's a different process, of course, that's less conducive to indulging for a second time that will-of-its-own stream of consciousness because mentally you're playing secretary not conduit, and, of course, you initially lose nothing by recording everything. I've known a couple writers similarly prone who've done this when, for example, they were restricted by word counts or a certain topic and no others. And if you feel an urge to go off on a related tangent while transcribing or editing, just pop another tape into the recorder, then go back to your original work after a reasonable break and some unrelated activity. Just a thought, and should you ever decide to try it, please let me know how it goes and if you found this helpful. And I suggest this only for those times when you start out telling yourself for some reason that "this is what I want to focus on and nothing else."

Cindy :)


P.S. When I'm involved with creative writing, by the way, and that flowing stream of consciousness (unconscious material :wink: ) is what matters most for the moment, I can only think with my pencil. Does that make sense? It's as if my mind were connect to my pencil, and I don't even think about or worry about the "recording" that's actually going on. I cannot write this sort of material on the computer, however, because the physical process of typing isn't wired for me in the same way. The mind's a most curious thing... 8)
Last edited by Cindy B. on Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung
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Post by Clemsy » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:21 pm

Neoplato wrote:
A moderator should only have to step in when negativity on the board goes beyond the established threshold of intolerability, and fortuntely that rarely happens here.-Cindy
Yes, these pokes are not a common occurrence. And yes this is a particular sore spot with me (and no I'm not an adult). And intolerability is subjective.

However, when associates imply "people aren't good enough to post here" I would think this would be a PR concern. :?

And unfortunately, I'm not guiltless. I have made a few comments I regret over the years. :(
Yeah I'm going to back Cindy here, Neo and ask for something concrete here. If you'd rather not throw someone under the bus, send either Cindy or myself a pm with a link to a post. For the life of me I can't think of a single instance of anyone implying "people aren't good enough to post here", and I'd hate to think something got past us.
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Post by Clemsy » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:28 pm

Might not be a bad idea to go over the first few pages of this thread, and pull some of what's there forward to chew over.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas
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Post by JamesN. » Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:09 pm

Hey everyone.

Thanks for the help Cindy. The preview function is my most important tool; but the others I had not considered because my high tech sophistication has; shall we say; a somewhat limited finesse. ( I'm getting better at it; but one or two alligators in the swamp to wrestle with at a time is about my limit for now. Further down the road however; this area is most definately on the list! ) Usually after extensive editing is when the 2nd thoughts occur because of the deep immersion process like in: " can't see the forrest for the trees "; that I become aware of the convoluted text and inaccurate syntax. I've come along way since my early days; but as they say: " I am a work in progress ".

Jufa, I must say how much I admire your sharing of your frustrations. I think it is something that many of us share; and by you doing this helps others who may be reluctant to come forward. ( This helps us all. ) I know for me personally; had I not been helped I might not have been able to come this far. ( Locked in my own prison of tormented frustration. ) And by us sharing these little insights with each other; those reading this may be helped and encouraged also. ( Thank you. )

Clemsy; that is an excellent idea! 8)


And to the rest of you please carry on. This is very useful material :)
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Post by Clemsy » Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:26 pm

Thanks, James!

This from Cindy bears repeating:
And in general and for all of us, whenever something a poster says, whether to us specifically or to another on the board, hits "a sore spot," that's a clear indication that shadow material has been activated and projection is in play. So honest self-reflection is the way to go at first, and those usually consciously disavowed dragon flames licking our feet from the personal unconscious deserve a good look and consideration, and especially so before submitting a reply.
.

Add that to a point I mentioned on page one:
We are creatures evolved to respond to the meaning of sound symbols and nonverbal cues. Reading and writing are learned behaviors which we all do with varying degrees of skill. Given that the associates participating here probably represent a highly educated group with, no doubt, an above average collective verbal IQ, but we still complete our mental pictures of each other on limited data... brains tend to fill in the blanks to create a whole image. Any given image may be well off the mark.
And it's those blank spots that become the repository of our own projections. We all do this. Any inflection we read in another's post is, of necessity, inferred. How much of that inference, positive or negative, is the result of a personal bias?
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas
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Post by JamesN. » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:28 pm

Thanks Clemsy.

Dead Center on the Mark I think concerning personal response and reflection. What was it Joe said quoting the biblical text about: " taking the log out of one's own eye before attempting to remove a splinter from someone elses " :?: It was something along that line as I recall.

Also I think technique concerning abstract concepts is a tripwire that sometimes many of us get tangled up with . For instance shorter sentences and the use of metaphors; as gramatical tools or devices along with punctuation is one area that tends to both help and hinder.

Any thoughts or past text come to mind that might be helpful here? :?
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Post by CarmelaBear » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:31 pm

jufa wrote:Specific instances have not been pointed to, nor spelled out. And the only person specified in my post is myself, saying I am guilty of all the supposition stated.
How come I never notice stuff like that?

:?
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene
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Post by Clemsy » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:29 pm

JamesN. wrote:Thanks Clemsy.

Dead Center on the Mark I think concerning personal response and reflection. What was it Joe said quoting the biblical text about: " taking the log out of one's own eye before attempting to remove a splinter from someone elses " :?: It was something along that line as I recall.

Also I think technique concerning abstract concepts is a tripwire that sometimes many of us get tangled up with . For instance shorter sentences and the use of metaphors; as gramatical tools or devices along with punctuation is one area that tends to both help and hinder.

Any thoughts or past text come to mind that might be helpful here? :?
I think it all boils down to mindful writing, James. This includes considering the various ways what you've written could be taken by another. Semantics and syntax really are critical if you would be understood. However, as I stated above, everyone writes differently and none of us have all the time in the world. So on the receiving end it's always wise to ask before deciding what another means, especially when offence seems a possibility.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas
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Post by JamesN. » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:44 pm

Clemsy.

I cannot speak for anyone else here But; this clears up Alot of ambiguity for me.

Very Cool. :wink:

Thank you. :D
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Post by CarmelaBear » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:14 pm

Me two. Tx.

8)
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene
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Post by Cindy B. » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:51 pm

Earlier today I posted this as part of a discussion in another forum. To my way of thinking it bears repeating, so I'm including it here:

I am always tempted to comment on the board whenever someone speaks in terms of absolutes or from an attitude of absolute conviction that this or that is the way it is and no other, and so the other guy's ideas are misguided or just plain wrong. But I have not because I'm always at the meta-level, too, and conceiving about conceiving, so I do not judge or criticize and operate from a stance of relativism that is inclusive of all. But I just might change my ways about that one. :wink: Too often exchanges on the board that include this sort of absolutism generate misunderstanding and even hard feelings if the other person's perspective is dismissed without validation that his way, too, is a reasonable and legitimate way to be in the world. In my imaginary "best of all forum worlds" folks would typically offer, "Yes, I recognize your position, but I just happen to disagree with it, and here's why." Forum food for thought, please...

***

Mere disagreement and the exchange of ideas on the the board is not a demand nor should it be perceived as such, please, folks, that the other poster change his/her beliefs and personal convictions. Our beliefs are indeed all our own and reflective of who we are in our particular uniqueness. It's what makes us human beings so very special and interesting. :)


Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung
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