Free Will

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Roncooper
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Post by Roncooper » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:32 pm

In my view Naturalism is tied to Shamanism, which is a sensual experience of the transcendent.

It is a very powerful and important link for many people.
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. -Isaac Newton
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romansh
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Post by romansh » Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:43 am

CarmelaBear wrote: There is the idea of the supernatural world that somehow interacts and intervenes in the natural world, and there is the notion that the world of the spirit is very much a part of the natural world.
If there is an intersection then I would say it can be observed, and if it can be observed it can be measured. The uncertainty principle aside.

The problem I have with your piece Carmela is that you point to things like the transcendent and spirit. The first is poorly defined and the second is in the eye of the beholder.
CarmelaBear wrote: Naturalism is related to materialism, but it is not the same. There may always be some transcendent reality that will never be observable by scientific means, and yet it will remain part of the mystical and very real human and organic experience.
For those interested in naturalism.
http://www.naturalism.org/
A great reference for articles on free will.
CarmelaBear wrote: This experience may eventually become safely accessible through the use of plant-based substances that mediate between the world of matter and the world of oneness. Science identifies particulars that can be quantified and measured, and observable spirit has no boundaries that can be counted or measured.
I remember someone saying accessing god with drugs is what rape is to love. Now I am not saying whether we should or should not part-take in mind altering substances - we all do inadvertently or intentionally. But ...
CarmelaBear wrote:As a material entity, free will is subject to laws of nature. In the world of the transcendent, will and freedom are the rule of the one and only reality of being.
And our actions are subject to this mysterious transcendent?
CarmelaBear wrote: How it works is obvious only to those who have been there. I don't know how someone like me lives in that place, where there is only spirit, but we seem to have direct access to a soul that transcends events and phenomenal experience, living outside the place where pain and suffering reside. It is a fountain of spiritual energy.
Now we have another term - soul?
I can't say how much I disagree with you Carmela.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
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Post by Roncooper » Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:05 am

CarmelaBear wrote:
There is the idea of the supernatural world that somehow interacts and intervenes in the natural world, and there is the notion that the world of the spirit is very much a part of the natural world.

If there is an intersection then I would say it can be observed, and if it can be observed it can be measured.
It has been observed many times, but not by machines because it is a quality and not a quantity.

Being in the eye of the beholder is a sign of power, being able to take many forms is better than being limited to one form.
For those interested in naturalism.
http://www.naturalism.org/
A great reference for articles on free will.
Why do atheists redefine everything? It must be some psychological need to redefine reality to fit their beliefs.
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. -Isaac Newton
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Post by Andreas » Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:51 am

First I wouldn't link the supernatural with the transcendent mystery. The supernatural is linked with the fantastical in my book. So is theism lol. I guess its ok.

The transcendent mystery is different as far as I am concerned, an inexplicable aspect of reality and life "something that cant be know never to be discovered." Campbell's words not mine. :P

Second, about naturalism... I have this thing about control.. I believe life is beautiful when is untamed not to mention that people dont like to be molded or controlled..

Yeap, thats all, later.
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki
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Post by CarmelaBear » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:11 am

romansh wrote: I can't say how much I disagree with you Carmela.
Mysticism is subjective. We may be completely, totally wrong! However, an active suspension of disbelief (SoD) can be useful. It has been shown through brain scans that SoD and faith relieve pain and create calm energy. Trusting minds live longer, even when the trust is a matter of percentage (like trusting that most other drivers won't hit the gas peddle and aim to plow into you).

~
Last edited by CarmelaBear on Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by CarmelaBear » Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:17 pm

For Stephen Colbert, truthiness makes eminent good sense. In the face of our current political drama, trumpiness works, too.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NqOTxl3Bsbw

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Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene
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Post by romansh » Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:25 am

CarmelaBear wrote: Mysticism is subjective. We may be completely, totally wrong! However, an active suspension of disbelief (SoD) can be useful. It has been shown through brain scans that SoD and faith relieve pain and create calm energy. Trusting minds live longer, even when the trust is a matter of percentage (like trusting that most other drivers won't hit the gas peddle and aim to drive over you).
Well there is a another word - mysticism - which means different things to different people.

Here is an excerpt from an interview from with Galen Strawson:
The Indian mystical thinker Krishnamurti reports that the experience of radical choice simply fades away when you advance spiritually: ‘you do not choose’, he says, ‘you do not decide, when you see things very clearly.. Only the unintelligent mind exercises choice in life’. A spiritually advanced or ‘truly intelligent mind simply cannot have choice’, because it ‘can … only choose the path of truth’. ‘Only the unintelligent mind has free will’ — by which he means experience of radical free will.
To be clear I am not endorsing Krishnamurti's view point regarding truly intelligent mind's etc. But it does show what is mysticism can mean just about anything. Now of course we can expect that some might argue Krishnamurti was not a true mystic ... but then we can trumpicate mysticism.

But some of us do get insights into how our (material) minds work.

As an aside ... I don't like Trump and here I mean the verb Trump ... all the behaviours that that constitute Trump. But then I understand I cannot help my lack of like no more than Trump can help who he is. I have no problem with the atoms that make up the Trump, though I don't particularly like the patterns they are forming.
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Post by Roncooper » Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:40 am

A deeply religious person with an intimate relationship with God may be aware that they are not in control of their life when it comes to the big picture, but God does not tell them which socks to wear.

The reference is pointless.
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. -Isaac Newton
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Post by romansh » Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:55 am

Roncooper wrote:A deeply religious person with an intimate relationship with God may be aware that they are not in control of their life when it comes to the big picture, but God does not tell them which socks to wear.

The reference is pointless.
What?
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
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Post by CarmelaBear » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:13 am

The universe makes us do things, but we don't necessarily want to do those things, or care if they get done at all.

Some decisions are distracting. Black socks are for black shoes. Most of my shoes are black. What's to choose?

~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene
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Post by CarmelaBear » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:41 am

Records and rules and laws. We make lists of things that need doing. Pick up some tea. Get the laundry done. Research a topic online. A sequence of genes for eyes and another for Parkinson's. Every circle contains the math of pi and every asteroid is made of rock and iron. Meticulous boundaries and lists and algorithms.

There is a natural phenomena that makes distinctions between stars and atoms. One set of rules for this and another for that. Our brain creates order out of seeming chaos, and sees what we need to see, creating distinctions between stars and atoms automatically.

As nature's machines we set about our tasks like ants and bees, following nature as the universe expands and molecules follow a separate and powerful set of instructions, with their own distinct list of things to do. Pick up food. Find a mate. And then, die.

We came. We saw. We did the best we could with our lists of things to do.

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Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene
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Post by Roncooper » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:07 pm

Roncooper wrote:
A deeply religious person with an intimate relationship with God may be aware that they are not in control of their life when it comes to the big picture, but God does not tell them which socks to wear.

The reference is pointless.

What?
I was trying to speak from their perspective, I thought that was obvious.
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. -Isaac Newton
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Post by Roncooper » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:12 pm

I think I am going to leave you machines alone and just enjoy the magic of the mystery.
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. -Isaac Newton
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Post by CarmelaBear » Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:38 pm

Sorry, Ron. Did we overstate and go overboard? The issue will remain unresolved because experience teaches, and personal experience is too narrow. Collectively, the jury is out. Experts disagree.

:?
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Post by romansh » Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:37 am

CarmelaBear wrote:Sorry, Ron. Did we overstate and go overboard? The issue will remain unresolved because experience teaches, and personal experience is too narrow. Collectively, the jury is out. Experts disagree.

:?
There might be one other cause Carmela.

Many if not most of us have a really strong desire to have free will.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
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