Jung (In The Weeds): Part Three

Do you have a conversation topic that doesn't seem to fit any of the other conversations? Here is where we discuss ANYTHING about Joseph Campbell, comparative mythology, and more!

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Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:19 am

James wrote:The " Mandorla " seems to be a symbol that is representative of the " Transcendent Function ". :idea:
Yo' James!

I sent you a PM by the way...

I need to provide you with some introductory information on sacred geometry to clarify the symbolism re: the mandorla aka the vesica pisces. Please hold tight--so far I can't find what I'm looking for in my bookmarks. :roll:

Also, a hint--in this case don't overthink, i.e., instead rely on your intuition, a nonrational process. :wink: Consider "union of opposites = the third as a symbol of transcendent wholeness/oneness."
Image

Ciao!
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung
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Post by JamesN. » Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:10 am

Cindy B. wrote:
James wrote:The " Mandorla " seems to be a symbol that is representative of the " Transcendent Function ". :idea:
Yo' James!

I sent you a PM by the way...

I need to provide you with some introductory information on sacred geometry to clarify the symbolism re: the mandorla aka the vesica pisces. Please hold tight--so far I can't find what I'm looking for in my bookmarks. :roll:

Also, a hint--in this case don't overthink, i.e., instead rely on your intuition, a nonrational process. :wink: Consider "union of opposites = the third as a symbol of transcendent wholeness/oneness."
Image

Ciao!

I found this really cool piece on sacred geometry. There are several things covered here and Joseph Campbell is mentioned also. Here is the section that covers the Mandorla 8)


https://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/math5.g ... l#Mandorla
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Post by JamesN. » Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:11 pm

This seems to fit the " transcendent function " aspect we have been discussing and might also be applicable to the " Mandorla or Union of Opposites " you mentioned.

From the " Jungian Lexicon ":

From the term " conflict ":



Quote:
Serious conflicts, especially those involving love or duty, generally involve a disparity between the functions of thinking and feeling. If one or the other is not a conscious participant in the conflict, it needs to be introduced.
The objection [may be] advanced that many conflicts are intrinsically insoluble. People sometimes take this view because they think only of external solutions-which at bottom are not solutions at all. . . . A real solution comes only from within, and then only because the patient has been brought to a different attitude.["Some Crucial Points in Psychoanalysis," CW 4, par. 606.]
Jung's major contribution to the psychology of conflict was his belief that it had a purpose in terms of the self-regulation of the psyche. If the tension between the opposites can be held in consciousness, then something will happen internally to resolve the conflict. The solution, essentially irrational and unforeseeable, generally appears as a new attitude toward oneself and the outer situation, together with a sense of peace; energy previously locked up in indecision is released and the progression of libido becomes possible. Jung called this the tertium non datur or transcendent function, because what happens transcends the opposites.
Holding the tension between opposites requires patience and a strong ego, otherwise a decision will be made out of desperation. Then the opposite will be constellated even more strongly and the conflict will continue with renewed force.

Jung's basic hypothesis in working with neurotic conflict was that separate personalities in oneself-complexes-were involved. As long as these are not made conscious they are acted out externally, through projection. Conflicts with other people are thus essentially externalizations of an unconscious conflict within oneself.


( Which led me to the term " Ego ": )


Quote:
Jung pointed out that knowledge of the ego-personality is often confused with self-understanding.
Anyone who has any ego-consciousness at all takes it for granted that he knows himself. But the ego knows only its own contents, not the unconscious and its contents. People measure their self-knowledge by what the average person in their social environment knows of himself, but not by the real psychic facts which are for the most part hidden from them. In this respect the psyche behaves like the body, of whose physiological and anatomical structure the average person knows very little too. ["The Undiscovered Self," CW 10, par. 491.]
In the process of individuation, one of the initial tasks is to differentiate the ego from the complexes in the personal unconscious, particularly the persona, the shadow and anima/animus. A strong ego can relate objectively to these and other contents of the unconscious without identifying with them.
Because the ego experiences itself as the center of the psyche, it is especially difficult to resist identification with the self, to which it owes its existence and to which, in the hierarchy of the psyche, it is subordinate.

The ego stands to the self as the moved to the mover, or as object to subject, because the determining factors which radiate out from the self surround the ego on all sides and are therefore supraordinate to it. The self, like the unconscious, is an a priori existent out of which the ego evolves.["Transformation Symbolism in the Mass," CW 11, par. 391.]

( I came across the first quotes taken from a prior discussion shared in a past PM. Here is the link to the Lexicon itself and the following definition of " transcendent function ". ):

http://www.psychceu.com/jung/sharplexicon.html

Transcendent function. A psychic function that arises from the tension between consciousness and the unconscious and supports their union. (See also opposites and tertium non datur.)
When there is full parity of the opposites, attested by the ego's absolute participation in both, this necessarily leads to a suspension of the will, for the will can no longer operate when every motive has an equally strong countermotive. Since life cannot tolerate a standstill, a damming up of vital energy results, and this would lead to an insupportable condition did not the tension of opposites produce a new, uniting function that transcends them. This function arises quite naturally from the regression of libido caused by the blockage.[Ibid., par. 824.]
The tendencies of the conscious and the unconscious are the two factors that together make up the transcendent function. It is called "transcendent" because it makes the transition from one attitude to another organically possible.[The Transcendent Function," CW 8, par. 145.]
In a conflict situation, or a state of depression for which there is no apparent reason, the development of the transcendent function depends on becoming aware of unconscious material. This is most readily available in dreams, but because they are so difficult to understand Jung considered the method of active imagination-giving "form" to dreams, fantasies, etc.--to be more useful.
Once the unconscious content has been given form and the meaning of the formulation is understood, the question arises as to how the ego will relate to this position, and how the ego and the unconscious are to come to terms. This is the second and more important stage of the procedure, the bringing together of opposites for the production of a third: the transcendent function. At this stage it is no longer the unconscious that takes the lead, but the ego.[Ibid., par. 181.]
This process requires an ego that can maintain its standpoint in face of the counterposition of the unconscious. Both are of equal value. The confrontation between the two generates a tension charged with energy and creates a living, third essence.
From the activity of the unconscious there now emerges a new content, constellated by thesis and antithesis in equal measure and standing in a compensatory relation to both. It thus forms the middle ground on which the opposites can be united. If, for instance, we conceive the opposition to be sensuality versus spirituality, then the mediatory content born out of the unconscious provides a welcome means of expression for the spiritual thesis, because of its rich spiritual associations, and also for the sensual antithesis, because of its sensuous imagery. The ego, however, torn between thesis and antithesis, finds in the middle ground its own counterpart, its sole and unique means of expression, and it eagerly seizes on this in order to be delivered from its division.["Definitions," CW 6, par. 825.]
The transcendent function is essentially an aspect of the self-regulation of the psyche. It typically manifests symbolically and is experienced as a new attitude toward oneself and life.
If the mediatory product remains intact, it forms the raw material for a process not of dissolution but of construction, in which thesis and antithesis both play their part. In this way it becomes a new content that governs the whole attitude, putting an end to the division and forcing the energy of the opposites into a common channel. The standstill is overcome and life can flow on with renewed power towards new goals.[Ibid., par. 827.]

( I hope this is helpful. ) :)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne
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Post by Larry Green » Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:48 pm

Cindy B. wrote:'Twas helpful, James, so let's clarify even further.

Archetypes themselves never reach consciousness since they're instinctual factors. (Consider your singing mockingbird, for instance. What can be observed is the effect of the instinct to sing given a particular environmental and biological context but not the impulse itself.) Yet the psychic effects of archetypes do present themselves to consciousness in the form of archetypal images and motifs. Early on Jung also referred to an archetypal image as "the image of an instinct," that is, an instinctual psychosocial image.

From Jung: "Archetypes...present themselves [to consciousness] as ideas and images, like everything else that becomes a content of consciousness [C: and often including emotions]. . .For years I have been observing and investigating the products of the unconscious in the widest sense of the word...I have not been able to avoid recognizing certain regularities, that is, types. There are types of situations and types of figures that repeat themselves frequently and have a corresponding meaning. I therefore employ the term "motif" to designate these repetitions [C: or "universal patterns"]." Note that personal expression of an archetypal image will be influenced by both psychological characteristics and sociocultural influences; also, cultures, too, collectively express archetypal effects.

So the main point that I'm making here is to note the conceptual distinction between archetype and archetypal image. I mention this since very often, and especially on the web, you see folks use the term "archetype" when in fact what they're talking about are "archetypal images or motifs." Now you'll recognize this misconception should you run across it.

Later!
Very helpful way to put it Cindy, thank you. With it , you have made me more fully aware of and at the same time clarified a very vaguely understood distinction between the two.
[/u]
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Post by CarmelaBear » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:35 pm

The archetype is a subconscious instinct and the image or motif is the visual presentation of what inspires that instinct.

For an instinctual fear, the archetypal image might be something like this: :twisted: .

~
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Post by Larry Green » Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:56 pm

JamesN. wrote:This seems to fit the " transcendent function " aspect we have been discussing and might also be applicable to the " Mandorla or Union of Opposites " you mentioned.

From the " Jungian Lexicon ":

From the term " conflict ":



Quote:
Serious conflicts, especially those involving love or duty, generally involve a disparity between the functions of thinking and feeling. If one or the other is not a conscious participant in the conflict, it needs to be introduced.
The objection [may be] advanced that many conflicts are intrinsically insoluble. People sometimes take this view because they think only of external solutions-which at bottom are not solutions at all. . . . A real solution comes only from within, and then only because the patient has been brought to a different attitude.["Some Crucial Points in Psychoanalysis," CW 4, par. 606.]
Jung's major contribution to the psychology of conflict was his belief that it had a purpose in terms of the self-regulation of the psyche. If the tension between the opposites can be held in consciousness, then something will happen internally to resolve the conflict. The solution, essentially irrational and unforeseeable, generally appears as a new attitude toward oneself and the outer situation, together with a sense of peace; energy previously locked up in indecision is released and the progression of libido becomes possible. Jung called this the tertium non datur or transcendent function, because what happens transcends the opposites.
Holding the tension between opposites requires patience and a strong ego, otherwise a decision will be made out of desperation. Then the opposite will be constellated even more strongly and the conflict will continue with renewed force.

Jung's basic hypothesis in working with neurotic conflict was that separate personalities in oneself-complexes-were involved. As long as these are not made conscious they are acted out externally, through projection. Conflicts with other people are thus essentially externalizations of an unconscious conflict within oneself.


( Which led me to the term " Ego ": )


Quote:
Jung pointed out that knowledge of the ego-personality is often confused with self-understanding.
Anyone who has any ego-consciousness at all takes it for granted that he knows himself. But the ego knows only its own contents, not the unconscious and its contents. People measure their self-knowledge by what the average person in their social environment knows of himself, but not by the real psychic facts which are for the most part hidden from them. In this respect the psyche behaves like the body, of whose physiological and anatomical structure the average person knows very little too. ["The Undiscovered Self," CW 10, par. 491.]
In the process of individuation, one of the initial tasks is to differentiate the ego from the complexes in the personal unconscious, particularly the persona, the shadow and anima/animus. A strong ego can relate objectively to these and other contents of the unconscious without identifying with them.
Because the ego experiences itself as the center of the psyche, it is especially difficult to resist identification with the self, to which it owes its existence and to which, in the hierarchy of the psyche, it is subordinate.

The ego stands to the self as the moved to the mover, or as object to subject, because the determining factors which radiate out from the self surround the ego on all sides and are therefore supraordinate to it. The self, like the unconscious, is an a priori existent out of which the ego evolves.["Transformation Symbolism in the Mass," CW 11, par. 391.]

( I came across the first quotes taken from a prior discussion shared in a past PM. Here is the link to the Lexicon itself and the following definition of " transcendent function ". ):

http://www.psychceu.com/jung/sharplexicon.html

Transcendent function. A psychic function that arises from the tension between consciousness and the unconscious and supports their union. (See also opposites and tertium non datur.)
When there is full parity of the opposites, attested by the ego's absolute participation in both, this necessarily leads to a suspension of the will, for the will can no longer operate when every motive has an equally strong countermotive. Since life cannot tolerate a standstill, a damming up of vital energy results, and this would lead to an insupportable condition did not the tension of opposites produce a new, uniting function that transcends them. This function arises quite naturally from the regression of libido caused by the blockage.[Ibid., par. 824.]
The tendencies of the conscious and the unconscious are the two factors that together make up the transcendent function. It is called "transcendent" because it makes the transition from one attitude to another organically possible.[The Transcendent Function," CW 8, par. 145.]
In a conflict situation, or a state of depression for which there is no apparent reason, the development of the transcendent function depends on becoming aware of unconscious material. This is most readily available in dreams, but because they are so difficult to understand Jung considered the method of active imagination-giving "form" to dreams, fantasies, etc.--to be more useful.
Once the unconscious content has been given form and the meaning of the formulation is understood, the question arises as to how the ego will relate to this position, and how the ego and the unconscious are to come to terms. This is the second and more important stage of the procedure, the bringing together of opposites for the production of a third: the transcendent function. At this stage it is no longer the unconscious that takes the lead, but the ego.[Ibid., par. 181.]
This process requires an ego that can maintain its standpoint in face of the counterposition of the unconscious. Both are of equal value. The confrontation between the two generates a tension charged with energy and creates a living, third essence.
From the activity of the unconscious there now emerges a new content, constellated by thesis and antithesis in equal measure and standing in a compensatory relation to both. It thus forms the middle ground on which the opposites can be united. If, for instance, we conceive the opposition to be sensuality versus spirituality, then the mediatory content born out of the unconscious provides a welcome means of expression for the spiritual thesis, because of its rich spiritual associations, and also for the sensual antithesis, because of its sensuous imagery. The ego, however, torn between thesis and antithesis, finds in the middle ground its own counterpart, its sole and unique means of expression, and it eagerly seizes on this in order to be delivered from its division.["Definitions," CW 6, par. 825.]
The transcendent function is essentially an aspect of the self-regulation of the psyche. It typically manifests symbolically and is experienced as a new attitude toward oneself and life.
If the mediatory product remains intact, it forms the raw material for a process not of dissolution but of construction, in which thesis and antithesis both play their part. In this way it becomes a new content that governs the whole attitude, putting an end to the division and forcing the energy of the opposites into a common channel. The standstill is overcome and life can flow on with renewed power towards new goals.[Ibid., par. 827.]
Wow, very good. Thank you James.


( I hope this is helpful. ) :)
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Post by Larry Green » Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:11 pm

Larry Green wrote:
Cindy B. wrote:'Twas helpful, James, so let's clarify even further.

Archetypes themselves never reach consciousness since they're instinctual factors. (Consider your singing mockingbird, for instance. What can be observed is the effect of the instinct to sing given a particular environmental and biological context but not the impulse itself.) Yet the psychic effects of archetypes do present themselves to consciousness in the form of archetypal images and motifs. Early on Jung also referred to an archetypal image as "the image of an instinct," that is, an instinctual psychosocial image.

From Jung: "Archetypes...present themselves [to consciousness] as ideas and images, like everything else that becomes a content of consciousness [C: and often including emotions]. . .For years I have been observing and investigating the products of the unconscious in the widest sense of the word...I have not been able to avoid recognizing certain regularities, that is, types. There are types of situations and types of figures that repeat themselves frequently and have a corresponding meaning. I therefore employ the term "motif" to designate these repetitions [C: or "universal patterns"]." Note that personal expression of an archetypal image will be influenced by both psychological characteristics and sociocultural influences; also, cultures, too, collectively express archetypal effects.

So the main point that I'm making here is to note the conceptual distinction between archetype and archetypal image. I mention this since very often, and especially on the web, you see folks use the term "archetype" when in fact what they're talking about are "archetypal images or motifs." Now you'll recognize this misconception should you run across it.

Later!
Very helpful way to put it Cindy, thank you. With it , you have made me more fully aware of and at the same time clarified a very vaguely understood distinction between the two.
[/u]
I do believe though that we should take note that Jung himself did have a confrontation with the collective unconscious. For that reason and others I do believe that it is indeed possible for content from the collective unconscious make it's way into consciousness or perhaps more correctly for the ego to descend into the collective unconscious. I think very rarely does this occur without a psychotic break but indeed it does occur. There are some who believe that Jung himself may well have succumbed through his encounter to a full blown psychosis, I am not one of those who believe the same because I have no doubt at all that it can and does happen, very rarely as I have stated and not something anyone would want to try but it does happen.
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Post by Larry Green » Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:39 pm

Along the same notion I would like to add that while Jung's 'synchronicity' does not imply a union of these two different areas in the psyche, I may be correct in my understanding that the realization of such events ( synchronistic) do imply and are indicative of a healthy connection between the conscious and the unconscious world.
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Post by JamesN. » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:27 am

Larry wrote:
I do believe though that we should take note that Jung himself did have a confrontation with the collective unconscious. For that reason and others I do believe that it is indeed possible for content from the collective unconscious make it's way into consciousness or perhaps more correctly for the ego to descend into the collective unconscious. I think very rarely does this occur without a psychotic break but indeed it does occur. There are some who believe that Jung himself may well have succumbed through his encounter to a full blown psychosis, I am not one of those who believe the same because I have no doubt at all that it can and does happen, very rarely as I have stated and not something anyone would want to try but it does happen.
( And ):

Larry also wrote:
Along the same notion I would like to add that while Jung's 'synchronicity' does not imply a union of these two different areas in the psyche, I may be correct in my understanding that the realization of such events ( synchronistic) do imply and are indicative of a healthy connection between the conscious and the unconscious world.

Hey Larry. I myself don't really feel qualified enough to adequately address your query. Unfortunately Cindy has taken a temporary leave of absence at the moment so in the meantime I might highly recommend if you have not already to spend some time going through the particular threads listed below. Although you obviously are familiar with some of his work I think you will thoroughly enjoy some of the insights that are shared throughout many of the various discussions; and it is full of many links to various articles and Jungian websites that may be of some assistance until she can address this directly. She has invested a great deal of personal care and attention in putting together this comprehensive overview that covers much of Jung's work specifically to help those of us new to him. It really is quite unique and we are extremely fortunate to have a resource like this that is so thoughtfully crafted utilizing both the relationship of Carl Jung's ideas with an understanding of Joseph Campbell's themes. For me it has been an invaluable treasure chest that continually enriches my somewhat limited and humble understanding in this area and I think you may find it to be most interesting until she is able to return and offer you her own thoughts. ( I hope this is helpful. )

Cheers
:)


http://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4050

http://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4321

http://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic. ... 4613#64613

http://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0
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Post by Larry Green » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:27 pm

Thank You James.
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Post by JamesN. » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:26 pm

Larry Green wrote:Thank You James.
Larry I hope I have not conveyed the wrong impression with offering these links for I am certainly no authority in this area. Cindy has been extremely thoughtful in providing them for those of us who have needed help with better understanding Jung's ideas and how they marry with Joseph Campbell's themes; ( most certainly myself ). At any rate here they are if they may be of any assistance until she returns.

Namaste
:)
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Post by Larry Green » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:55 pm

James, you have conveyed nothing other than a helpful and kind impression. Thanks again.
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Post by JamesN. » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:44 pm

Larry said:
James, you have conveyed nothing other than a helpful and kind impression. Thanks again.
Thank you Larry. BTW this was listed on the homepage and the first lecture is about Jung. ( I myself have not listened to it but since it is a new offering I thought I would pass it along in case you or anyone else might be interested. )
Three New Joseph Campbell Lectures! Print |



Lecture II.3.3 Album Cover




These lectures, recorded in 1971-72, have never before been commercially released. (Given the age and state of original tapes, there may be background noise at points, though Campbell's words are clear). Click on album cover above, or Series II link, to learn more or to download.
Any of three new talks in Series II, Volume 3 of the Joseph Campbell Audio Collection are now available for download as our Thank You gift when you donate $5.99 to JCF:

Lecture II.3.3 – The Mythic Image – Joseph Campbell delves into the compelling psychology of Carl Jung, including how psychological functions manifest, both consciously and unconsciously, in individual experience.

Lecture II.3.4 – The Mythic Goddess – In this lecture, delivered at Sarah Lawrence, Campbell focuses on the feminine, presenting the many roles the Goddess has played in different mythologies through the millennia.

Lecture II.3.5 – Mythologies of Alienation & Rapture – Campbell examines the concept of duality and its expression in Christianity, as compared to Kundalini yoga, psychology, and psychedelic experiences.
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne
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Post by JamesN. » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:26 pm

I have been assembling links from a recent collection added to the JCF YouTube channel which I hope may be of help to those seeking more information about Joseph Campbell's ideas concerning many of Carl Jung's themes on individuation. These were short excerpts taken from the larger Lecture Series highlighting specific concepts and if you have not heard them will provide you with some of his best talks as only he could deliver them. Not to be missed!

Archetypes of the Unconscious:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvZMP9hYfKg


The Latter Thresholds: The Loss of Powers and Death:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWICd_ZD9MI


Enantiodromia and Four Psychological Functions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCVXJ5lldRk


Her Animus and His Anima:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOkVQOCIpHA


Persona: The Mask Society Provides:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_osnFRVPUk


Shadow and Undeveloped Functions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3x6D24UDPY


Unconscious Powers: Integration and Balance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJu5oWThHx8


Carl Jung and the Mythic Imagery of Dreams:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E8pRLtJjLs


Enantiodromia and Integration: Midlife Crisis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shA59buhuss


These audio clips are all short and of course there is so much more to cover within this topic; but the below link will carry you to the JCF Channel listings where you can continue on with your research. The recent downloaded addition of new material is " massive " and you will have quite a grand adventure in your perusals. ( Just remember to keep pushing the " load more " tab at the bottom of the page for there are many more of these audio clips in the storage banks you can't get to unless you do. My last count was around " 22 " reloads and there may be more to come. Much gratitude to our JCF staff and volunteers for putting this material together for the potential benefit this serves in helping to carry forward Joseph Campbell's work to the larger global community. )


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtsNRw ... m6w/videos


Enjoy!


BTW; Cindy we miss you! :wink:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne
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Post by Ercan2121 » Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:33 am

Is-it true that Dr. Jung could never visit Rome in his lifetime?
a latecomer :wink:
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