Jung (In The Weeds): Part Three

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Post by JamesN. » Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:33 pm

Here is a remarkable article on Jung and Tolkien. 8)

http://www.cgjungpage.org/learn/article ... e-and-word
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Post by JamesN. » Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:43 pm

Although it's been about a year since this particular topic in this thread has been discussed; I came across this really fascinating and helpful pdf of the 1st chapter of Jeffery Miller's book: "The Transcendent Function - Jung's Model Of Psychological Growth Through Dialogue With The Unconscious"; for those who may be interested.


http://www.sunypress.edu/pdf/60876.pdf


(Although Cindy is not here for comment this is a link for the book on amazon if anyone is interested.):

http://smile.amazon.com/The-Transcenden ... 5G7SPAHKAW



:idea:
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Post by Andreas » Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:13 pm

Roncooper wrote:James,

I read the links. Very interesting stuff. It will take time to digest. One thing I am having trouble with was the idea that the conscious and the subconscious are in conflict. Conflict implies a two way situation, I can see a person denying or being hostile toward their subconscious, but I can't see it going the other way. I guess I see the subconscious as being more mature. I will have to think some more.
http://www.psychceu.com/Jung/sharplexicon.html

Scroll down and find Conflict for an explanation of what Jung meant. :)
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Post by Roncooper » Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:22 pm

Andreas,

Thank you for the link. That helped.
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. -Isaac Newton
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Post by JamesN. » Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:51 pm

Andreas wrote:
Roncooper wrote:James,

I read the links. Very interesting stuff. It will take time to digest. One thing I am having trouble with was the idea that the conscious and the subconscious are in conflict. Conflict implies a two way situation, I can see a person denying or being hostile toward their subconscious, but I can't see it going the other way. I guess I see the subconscious as being more mature. I will have to think some more.
http://www.psychceu.com/Jung/sharplexicon.html

Scroll down and find Conflict for an explanation of what Jung meant. :)

Thank you Andeas; I really think you nailed the connection. From what I know the content seems to bear it out as well. 8)


I've been passing you back and forth in posting and just now was able to reread it again. :lol: )


Andreas that's also a great suggestion for anyone else that's interested too! :idea:


From the Lexicon:
Conflict.
A state of indecision, accompanied by inner tension. (See also opposites and transcendent function.)
The apparently unendurable conflict is proof of the rightness of your life. A life without inner contradiction is either only half a life or else a life in the Beyond, which is destined only for angels. But God loves human beings more than the angels.[C.G. Jung Letters, vol. 1, p. 375.]
The self is made manifest in the opposites and in the conflict between them; it is a coincidentia oppositorum [coincidence of opposites]. Hence the way to the self begins with conflict.["Individual Dream Symbolism in Relation to Alchemy," CW 12, par. 259.]
Conflict is a hallmark of neurosis, but conflict is not invariably neurotic. Some degree of conflict is even desirable since without some tension between opposites the developmental process is inhibited. Conflict only becomes neurotic when it interferes with the normal functioning of consciousness.
The stirring up of conflict is a Luciferian virtue in the true sense of the word. Conflict engenders fire, the fire of affects and emotions, and like every other fire it has two aspects, that of combustion and that of creating light.["Psychological Aspects of the Mother Archetype," CW 9i, par. 179.]
When a conflict is unconscious, tension manifests as physical symptoms, particularly in the stomach, the back and the neck. Conscious conflict is experienced as moral or ethical tension. Serious conflicts, especially those involving love or duty, generally involve a disparity between the functions of thinking and feeling. If one or the other is not a conscious participant in the conflict, it needs to be introduced.
The objection [may be] advanced that many conflicts are intrinsically insoluble. People sometimes take this view because they think only of external solutions-which at bottom are not solutions at all. . . . A real solution comes only from within, and then only because the patient has been brought to a different attitude.["Some Crucial Points in Psychoanalysis," CW 4, par. 606.]
Jung's major contribution to the psychology of conflict was his belief that it had a purpose in terms of the self-regulation of the psyche. If the tension between the opposites can be held in consciousness, then something will happen internally to resolve the conflict. The solution, essentially irrational and unforeseeable, generally appears as a new attitude toward oneself and the outer situation, together with a sense of peace; energy previously locked up in indecision is released and the progression of libido becomes possible. Jung called this the tertium non datur or transcendent function, because what happens transcends the opposites.
Holding the tension between opposites requires patience and a strong ego, otherwise a decision will be made out of desperation. Then the opposite will be constellated even more strongly and the conflict will continue with renewed force.

Jung's basic hypothesis in working with neurotic conflict was that separate personalities in oneself-complexes-were involved. As long as these are not made conscious they are acted out externally, through projection. Conflicts with other people are thus essentially externalizations of an unconscious conflict within oneself.

(Since we are already here let's match it up and check out the "Transcendent Function" definition perspective also from the Lexicon):
Transcendent function.
A psychic function that arises from the tension between consciousness and the unconscious and supports their union. (See also opposites and tertium non datur.)
When there is full parity of the opposites, attested by the ego's absolute participation in both, this necessarily leads to a suspension of the will, for the will can no longer operate when every motive has an equally strong countermotive. Since life cannot tolerate a standstill, a damming up of vital energy results, and this would lead to an insupportable condition did not the tension of opposites produce a new, uniting function that transcends them. This function arises quite naturally from the regression of libido caused by the blockage.[Ibid., par. 824.]
The tendencies of the conscious and the unconscious are the two factors that together make up the transcendent function. It is called "transcendent" because it makes the transition from one attitude to another organically possible.[The Transcendent Function," CW 8, par. 145.]
In a conflict situation, or a state of depression for which there is no apparent reason, the development of the transcendent function depends on becoming aware of unconscious material. This is most readily available in dreams, but because they are so difficult to understand Jung considered the method of active imagination-giving "form" to dreams, fantasies, etc.--to be more useful.
Once the unconscious content has been given form and the meaning of the formulation is understood, the question arises as to how the ego will relate to this position, and how the ego and the unconscious are to come to terms. This is the second and more important stage of the procedure, the bringing together of opposites for the production of a third: the transcendent function. At this stage it is no longer the unconscious that takes the lead, but the ego.[Ibid., par. 181.]
This process requires an ego that can maintain its standpoint in face of the counterposition of the unconscious. Both are of equal value. The confrontation between the two generates a tension charged with energy and creates a living, third essence.
From the activity of the unconscious there now emerges a new content, constellated by thesis and antithesis in equal measure and standing in a compensatory relation to both. It thus forms the middle ground on which the opposites can be united. If, for instance, we conceive the opposition to be sensuality versus spirituality, then the mediatory content born out of the unconscious provides a welcome means of expression for the spiritual thesis, because of its rich spiritual associations, and also for the sensual antithesis, because of its sensuous imagery. The ego, however, torn between thesis and antithesis, finds in the middle ground its own counterpart, its sole and unique means of expression, and it eagerly seizes on this in order to be delivered from its division.["Definitions," CW 6, par. 825.]
The transcendent function is essentially an aspect of the self-regulation of the psyche. It typically manifests symbolically and is experienced as a new attitude toward oneself and life.
If the mediatory product remains intact, it forms the raw material for a process not of dissolution but of construction, in which thesis and antithesis both play their part. In this way it becomes a new content that governs the whole attitude, putting an end to the division and forcing the energy of the opposites into a common channel. The standstill is overcome and life can flow on with renewed power towards new goals.[Ibid., par. 827.]

( And yes this has already been quoted earlier so please accept my humble apologies for I'm trying to keep from herding cats! :roll: ) :)
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Post by JamesN. » Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:21 am

Here is a really interesting piece I came across on "The Shadow" that goes into great detail about some of the inter-relationships within the Individuation process. (Since The Shadow is such a critical part of this process I thought it was important to offer it; even though Cindy is not with us at the moment to share her thoughts and insight. Hopefully at some point she'll be able to return; but until then please bear with me.) It's very dense and very long but definitely worth the effort. It was extremely illuminating in helping me to learn more about The Shadow and how some of the various components fit together as well. (I'm trying to piece my understanding of this material and these concepts together as I go; so please be advised my knowledge of this is somewhat limited here. Hopefully it will be of some help to others that are interested as well.)

http://www.cgjung-vereniging.nl/home/fi ... dehing.pdf


Namaste :)
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Post by Roncooper » Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:36 pm

James,

I just started reading this but I had to laugh when I read, "The problem of consciousness." I never thought of consciousness as a problem.
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. -Isaac Newton
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Post by JamesN. » Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:19 pm

Roncooper wrote:James,

I just started reading this but I had to laugh when I read, "The problem of consciousness." I never thought of consciousness as a problem.

Ron. On reading through this paper "twice" I found quite a bit of insightful information that illuminates much of my limited understanding. But then again each of us may have a different interpretation.

I came across a couple of recent short 10 min. clips on "Individuation" that may prove to be helpful in offering a quick overview of the process. I can't vouch for their authorship but they seem to cover the subject quite well for what they are providing; (Cindy territory here). IMHO these are "no substitute" for a deeper more informed understanding of the concepts; but might be seen more as an invitation to explore their more profound depths and dimensions. At any rate they touch on some of the major talking points like the Anima/animus for instance; that are not always covered as much in some of the other material I have sometimes encountered. When comparing many of Joseph Campbell's references to Jung the Shadow paper seems to resonate quite well here; but then you may have other thoughts on this. While you are finishing up reading through the article see if you think these clips match up.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0KzUS0b_uc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhAeXyVDDTc


(The journey continues.)

Cheers :)


______________________________________________________________________


One last thing I might add that I think might be worth mentioning is Cindy's description on making the distinction between an Archetype and an Archetypal Image which she suggests is often confused in their identification.

Cindy:
Archetypes themselves never reach consciousness since they're instinctual factors. (Consider your singing mockingbird, for instance. What can be observed is the effect of the instinct to sing given a particular environmental and biological context but not the impulse itself.) Yet the psychic effects of archetypes do present themselves to consciousness in the form of archetypal images and motifs. Early on Jung also referred to an archetypal image as "the image of an instinct," that is, an instinctual psychosocial image.

From Jung: "Archetypes...present themselves [to consciousness] as ideas and images, like everything else that becomes a content of consciousness [C: and often including emotions]. . .For years I have been observing and investigating the products of the unconscious in the widest sense of the word...I have not been able to avoid recognizing certain regularities, that is, types. There are types of situations and types of figures that repeat themselves frequently and have a corresponding meaning. I therefore employ the term "motif" to designate these repetitions [C: or "universal patterns"]." Note that personal expression of an archetypal image will be influenced by both psychological characteristics and sociocultural influences; also, cultures, too, collectively express archetypal effects.

So the main point that I'm making here is to note the conceptual distinction between archetype and archetypal image. I mention this since very often, and especially on the web, you see folks use the term "archetype" when in fact what they're talking about are "archetypal images or motifs."

From the Lexicon:
Archetypal image. The form or representation of an archetype in consciousness. (See also collective unconscious.)
[The archetype is] a dynamism which makes itself felt in the numinosity and fascinating power of the archetypal image.["On the Nature of the Psyche," CW 8, par. 414.]
Archetypal images, as universal patterns or motifs which come from the collective unconscious, are the basic content of religions, mythologies, legends and fairy tales.
An archetypal content expresses itself, first and foremost, in metaphors. If such a content should speak of the sun and identify with it the lion, the king, the hoard of gold guarded by the dragon, or the power that makes for the life and health of man, it is neither the one thing nor the other, but the unknown third thing that finds more or less adequate expression in all these similes, yet-to the perpetual vexation of the intellect-remains unknown and not to be fitted into a formula.["The Psychology of the Child Archetype," CW 9i, par. 267]
On a personal level, archetypal motifs are patterns of thought or behavior that are common to humanity at all times and in all places.
For years I have been observing and investigating the products of the unconscious in the widest sense of the word, namely dreams, fantasies, visions, and delusions of the insane. I have not been able to avoid recognizing certain regularities, that is, types. There are types of situations and types of figures that repeat themselves frequently and have a corresponding meaning. I therefore employ the term "motif" to designate these repetitions. Thus there are not only typical dreams but typical motifs in dreams. . . . [These] can be arranged under a series of archetypes, the chief of them being . . . the shadow, the wise old man, the child (including the child hero), the mother ("Primordial Mother" and "Earth Mother") as a supraordinate personality ("daemonic" because supraordinate), and her counterpart the maiden, and lastly the anima in man and the animus in woman.["The Psychological Aspects of the Kore," ibid., par. 309.]


(This may or may not address the consciousness issue you were mentioning; but I thought it worth bringing up since unless I missed something the "paper" didn't really seem to cover the Archetypal Image.)



As Cindy says: The End :lol:
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Post by Roncooper » Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:48 pm

James,

This is interesting stuff. I'm not criticizing, it was just funny to me to think consciousness was a problem.
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Post by JamesN. » Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:55 pm

Roncooper wrote:James,

This is interesting stuff. I'm not criticizing, it was just funny to me to think consciousness was a problem.
Not to worry Ron; this is deep complex material for anyone to assimilate. And since I too am trying to work my way through it; input from others like yourself who are likewise engaged helps to broaden the perspective. You always bring a thoughtful and respectful point of view that helps contribute to the higher discourse of these mental explorations; and makes the challenge much more enjoyable than just slogging through the mountains of text trying to extract the proper meanings.


Cheers 8)
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Post by Ercan2121 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:16 am

Hello guys,
Consciousness is truly a problem sometimes;
because, as Carl Jung often reminds us, that's a
very recent acquisition of nature and it's still in an
'experimental' state. What about the technicall
issue concerning the future of this website?
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Post by JamesN. » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:03 pm

Ercan:
What about the technicall
issue concerning the future of this website?
Hello Ercan. Good to see you back. To answer your question as far as I know the website is now up and running again thanks to a fix that Mark from the support team implemented. (I'm not sure how many of the regular posters know about this as of yet; but some are starting to come back.) That said the Foundation's website in it's present state is only a temporary solution going forward. And as you may have heard the great news is that the fundraising for a total overhaul was successful and a brand new version is in the works. (I'm sure Clemsy will keep everyone informed of it's status as things progress.) :)
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Post by Roncooper » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:51 pm

Ercan2121,

Consciousness is a funny thing. Theories about it range from those who believe it doesn't exist to those who believe it is all that exist, and many intermediate positions.

I would guess that where one stands within this spectrum of beliefs depends on how intuitive the person is.
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. -Isaac Newton
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Post by JamesN. » Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:18 pm

Ercan:
Hello guys,
Consciousness is truly a problem sometimes;
because, as Carl Jung often reminds us, that's a
very recent acquisition of nature and it's still in an
'experimental' state. What about the technicall
issue concerning the future of this website?

Ron:
Ercan2121,

Consciousness is a funny thing. Theories about it range from those who believe it doesn't exist to those who believe it is all that exist, and many intermediate positions.

I would guess that where one stands within this spectrum of beliefs depends on how intuitive the person is.

Hey everyone. My apologies for the lack of input concerning the topic of "consciousness" that just came up; but life maintenance chores took precedence.

Since Cindy set this thread aside specifically to address Jungian material I thought some additions from the Lexicon she referenced might be useful here. These separate definitions might help to show some of the differences and also the connections between where some of the boundaries lay concerning this term in Jungian context.



("Consciousness"):
Consciousness. The function or activity which maintains the relation of psychic contents to the ego; distinguished conceptually from the psyche, which encompasses both consciousness and the unconscious. (See also opposites.)

There is no consciousness without discrimination of opposites.["Psychological Aspects of the Mother Archetype," CW 9i, par. 178.]
There are two distinct ways in which consciousness arises. The one is a moment of high emotional tension, comparable to the scene in Parsifal where the hero, at the very moment of greatest temptation, suddenly realizes the meaning of Amfortas' wound. The other is a state of contemplation, in which ideas pass before the mind like dream-images. Suddenly there is a flash of association between two apparently disconnected and widely separated ideas, and this has the effect of releasing a latent tension. Such a moment often works like a revelation. In every case it seems to be the discharge of energy-tension, whether external or internal, which produces consciousness.["Analytical Psychology and Education," CW 17, par. 207.]
In Jung's view of the psyche, individual consciousness is a superstructure based on, and arising out of, the unconscious.
Consciousness does not create itself-it wells up from unknown depths. In childhood it awakens gradually, and all through life it wakes each morning out of the depths of sleep from an unconscious condition. It is like a child that is born daily out of the primordial womb of the unconscious. . . . It is not only influenced by the unconscious but continually emerges out of it in the form of numberless spontaneous ideas and sudden flashes of thought.["The Psychology of Eastern Meditation," CW 11, par. 935.]

(And the "Collective Unconscious"):


Collective unconscious. A structural layer of the human psyche containing inherited elements, distinct from the personal unconscious. (See also archetype and archetypal image.)
The collective unconscious contains the whole spiritual heritage of mankind's evolution, born anew in the brain structure of every individual.[The Structure of the Psyche," CW 8, par. 342.]
Jung derived his theory of the collective unconscious from the ubiquity of psychological phenomena that could not be explained on the basis of personal experience. Unconscious fantasy activity, for instance, falls into two categories.
First, fantasies (including dreams) of a personal character, which go back unquestionably to personal experiences, things forgotten or repressed, and can thus be completely explained by individual anamnesis. Second, fantasies (including dreams) of an impersonal character, which cannot be reduced to experiences in the individual's past, and thus cannot be explained as something individually acquired. These fantasy-images undoubtedly have their closest analogues in mythological types. . . . These cases are so numerous that we are obliged to assume the existence of a collective psychic substratum. I have called this the collective unconscious.[The Psychology of the Child Archetype," CW 9i, par. 262.]
The collective unconscious-so far as we can say anything about it at all-appears to consist of mythological motifs or primordial images, for which reason the myths of all nations are its real exponents. In fact, the whole of mythology could be taken as a sort of projection of the collective unconscious. . . . We can therefore study the collective unconscious in two ways, either in mythology or in the analysis of the individual.["The Structure of the Psyche," CW 8, par. 325.]
The more one becomes aware of the contents of the personal unconscious, the more is revealed of the rich layer of images and motifs that comprise the collective unconscious. This has the effect of enlarging the personality.
In this way there arises a consciousness which is no longer imprisoned in the petty, oversensitive, personal world of the ego, but participates freely in the wider world of objective interests. This widened consciousness is no longer that touchy, egotistical bundle of personal wishes, fears, hopes, and ambitions which always has to be compensated or corrected by unconscious counter-tendencies; instead, it is a function of relationship to the world of objects, bringing the individual into absolute, binding, and indissoluble communion with the world at large.[The Function of the Unconscious," CW 7, par. 275.]

(And the "Personal Unconscious" ):


Personal unconscious. The personal layer of the unconscious, distinct from the collective unconscious.
The personal unconscious contains lost memories, painful ideas that are repressed (i.e., forgotten on purpose), subliminal perceptions, by which are meant sense-perceptions that were not strong enough to reach consciousness, and finally, contents that are not yet ripe for consciousness.[The Personal and the Collective Unconscious," ibid., par. 103.]

It might be worth noting here that Heinrich Zimmer was a close friend of Carl Jung; and Joseph spent 12 years editing Zimmer's material after he died. Zimmer was considered by many scholars to be the most informed authority on Indian art, religion, and mythology in the west at that time and when they met at Columbia was a huge influence on Joseph's understanding of their significance. (Joseph's involvement with the Bollingen Series papers prove this out.) The works listed at the bottom of the following Wikipedia link should give you an idea of the extensive depth of this published material; and also in looking through Joseph Campbell's collection of published works which can be seen at the JCF bookstore as well.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bollingen_Foundation



Also I would highly recommend reading Cindy's wonderful article linked below and listed in the JCF Mythblog section which from my own limited background offers IMHO the best information on this subject that I've come across.



http://www.jcf.org/new/index.php?catego ... &blogid=18



Cheers :)
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Post by Roncooper » Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:34 am

Since this is Jung in the weeds, I think this isn't the place to discuss consciousness. I think it has its own thread.

In my opinion Jung made a great deal of progress that others are building upon. I have read that some depth psychologists are using meditation as a therapeutic tool. This makes great sense to me since meditation calms and centers our consciousness.
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. -Isaac Newton
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