What do you understand by "Transcendence"?

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Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato » Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:01 pm

i.e. zero and infinity are the same
For me, if zero and infinity are the same, then I would not exist. Hence, 1 and infinity are the same and "zero" (a circle) is just just the shape of existence. (But I guess that's a little off topic).
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.
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nandu
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Post by nandu » Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:00 pm

Neoplato wrote:For me, if zero and infinity are the same, then I would not exist.
Bingo! When "I" ceases to exist, you have acheived transcendence!

8)

Nandu.
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romansh
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Post by romansh » Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:15 pm

Neoplato wrote:
So to truly achieve nothinghood might be transcendence? -Rom
How about this...

Coming to the realization that the concept of nothinghood doesn't exist. There is, and has always been, something.
Your physics is better than mine Neo.

But if transcendence is beyond all categories of thought then any realization is not transcendence.

That one can conceive "something" - then neither the conceiving nor the "something" can be transcendence - at least by Clemsy's definition.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
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Post by romansh » Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:16 pm

nandu wrote:
Neoplato wrote:For me, if zero and infinity are the same, then I would not exist.
Bingo! When "I" ceases to exist, you have acheived transcendence!

8)

Nandu.
They are reflections of each other. Metaphorically speaking.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
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Post by Clemsy » Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:23 pm

That one can conceive "something" - then neither the conceiving nor the "something" can be transcendence - at least by Clemsy's definition.
Precisely. Transcendence isn't a conception, even though we behave as if it were because we need to use words and ideas to at least point toward it.

Is it a wave or a particle?

As soon as you observe it you limit it to what's within the circle.

The way to the experience of it is to shut the mind off. Quiet the chattering of the monkey brain to a point of stillness. That's where the door is.
“If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.” ~ William Blake
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas
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romansh
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Post by romansh » Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:31 pm

Clemsy wrote: The way to the experience of it is to shut the mind off. Quiet the chattering of the monkey brain to a point of stillness. That's where the door is.
“If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.” ~ William Blake
cf
Clemsy wrote:I think if you pursue transcendence you will never find it.
hmmn
??
:)
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Post by Clemsy » Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:59 pm

No contradiction there, Rom. Any form of focused concentration is a nonaction. While running a race, the athlete isn't trying to be a runner. If one meditates with the desire of a transcendent experience in mind, that experience will prove elusive.

Kind of like, let it go and there you have it.

You have to be purely in the moment you're in, where there is only being.

What is the purpose of such a behavior? To become transcendent? I don't think so. I don't even know what that means. To become enlightened? Not sure what that means either. To have a richer experience of being alive?

Now that I can wrap my head around.

The transcendent experience happens. It just happens. That's all I can say for sure.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas
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Post by nandu » Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:22 pm

Clemsy wrote:The transcendent experience happens. It just happens. That's all I can say for sure.
8)

Consciousness simply does not enter into it, IMO.

Nandu.
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Post by jonsjourney » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:24 pm

I think I can get with the idea of volition not being involved, but to say that consciousness does not have a role seems to rule out awareness that it happened, unless we are willing to say that we can be aware and not conscious of having been aware, which seems to mean that we never had a transcendent experience.

Maybe the paradox is that you cannot experience transcendence without consciousness, yet the primary barrier to transcendent experience is consciousness.

Kind of like Jung's statement about religion being a protection against religious experience.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams
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Post by romansh » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:41 pm

jonsjourney wrote: Maybe the paradox is that you cannot experience transcendence without consciousness, yet the primary barrier to transcendent experience is consciousness.
There is one major assumption here JJ.
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Re: What do you understand by "Transcendence"?

Post by jufa » Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:57 pm

nandu wrote:
Transcendence is not nothingness. Transcendence is that region where being and nothingness become the same.

It is beyond all categories of thought, because when I think, the "I" takes shape. In the transcendent realm there is no "I" - only pure experience.

Nandu.
To say the region which defines transcendent becomes reality is found where there is nothing to find is, to myself, transitory to a void of unawareness intellectually. I am saying this in agreement with
"The black moment is the moment when the real message of transformation is going to come. At the darkest moment comes the light." ―Joseph Campbell
I find transcendence is when the message become real in the knowledge
"All things exist beyond the line of identification except in the human mind." - jufa
And this knowledge belongs only to the individuals who has transcended themselves. This means they have returned to that "Light that lightest every man that cometh into the world." Even in this individual transcendent, it cannot be relayed to another because each individual must receive it by revelation, which comes not by intellectual comprehension.
Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com
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Post by jonsjourney » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:13 am

There is one major assumption here JJ. -Rom
Actually, there could be several, so you will have to point out what you mean.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams
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Post by jonsjourney » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:28 am

There's lots of reasons to practice meditation. To find peace, happiness, relief from stress and pain, to be a better father, husband, worker, lower blood pressure, improve overall physical and emotional health...

But to do so for the purpose of becoming 'transcendent' sounds to me like an exercise in hubris. -Clemsy
We have a bit of cross-thread traffic going on, so I wanted to bring this quote over from the "Is this a Religion?' thread.

I wonder, do you think there is a difference between becoming transcendent and having a transcendent experience?

I do enjoy the fact that we are spending some significant time talking about what cannot be spoken of. :lol:
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Post by Neoplato » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:01 pm

Bingo! When "I" ceases to exist, you have acheived transcendence!
Ok...but the indiviual identity (formerly known as "I") will exist. Extistence is the "1". Even though "I" is gone, to exist still requires a notion of Self.
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Post by nandu » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:11 pm

Neoplato wrote:
Bingo! When "I" ceases to exist, you have acheived transcendence!
Ok...but the indiviual identity (formerly known as "I") will exist. Extistence is the "1". Even though "I" is gone, to exist still requires a notion of Self.
Nothing exists after the "I" is gone... or everything exists. That is why I said the Nothing becomes Everything, or Everything becomes Nothing.

The dichotomy, which is a creation of the self, disappears.

Nandu.
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