What do you understand by "Transcendence"?

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Post by Roncooper » Sun Mar 06, 2016 1:59 am

James,

Thank you for the quotes. I think i have a good understanding of Jung's individuation process from my own long life. However I disagree that guilt motivates a person to spread their wisdom. I see it as an act of compassion for a suffering world, or as a story that is too good to keep to oneself, like the juiciest gossip, it must be told.
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Post by JamesN. » Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:18 am

Ron:
Thank you for the quotes. I think i have a good understanding of Jung's individuation process from my own long life.
Ron in all due respect I think you are misreading some of the context from the quotes.

Ron:
However I disagree that guilt motivates a person to spread their wisdom. I see it as an act of compassion for a suffering world, or as a story that is too good to keep to oneself, like the juiciest gossip, it must be told.

First of all let me be clear about what I'm trying to get at. This not an attack on your views or life experiences at all. This is about the definition of the term "Individuation". So let me proceed with this another way. As I see this aspect of raising consciousness indeed part of the definition "is" about coming into awareness. But my point was that "Individuation" is a (process) not an experience. You are certainly entitled to your own thoughts on this term but what I have just stated is my understanding. Everything I have ever read or seen concerning this definition indeed states and supports that definition; but if I have misread or misunderstood you then please forgive my misinterpretation.

To look at this another way mental development takes on different psychological forms throughout the different stages of life; and most notably in later life because there is much of the individual that has not been developed and one aspect of this takes the form of the "knock-knock" principle in later life that Joseph Campobell mentions; ( simply speaking; The Shadow ) that demands to be given voice to. So there is the "Integration" of this part of oneself with it's unrealized potential that must be realized and incorporated into the mix if you will to bring forth a new dimension of oneself; but at the same time also controlling it's dark side as well. (Cindy of course could finesse this description much better than; but I digress.)

So to continue; yes one has many varied types of deep experiences within the innermost depths of their psychological being; but from my understanding it is this "process" of exploration and discovery that drives and produces the illuminations that are the result of these experiences. Now these are absolutely my views and I'm certainly "not" saying that everything is a result of this process for there is much more to it than that; like for instance states or conditions like: enantiodromia, neurosis, psychosis, schizophrenia, etc., etc. But simplistically speaking from a layperson's view to me much of this is basically about dealing with the balancing and harmonizing of different aspects of the psyche. And because the demands of this interior mindscape change throughout the different life stages; and there is also an accumulation of life experience that also is assimilating a drive towards wholeness that is trying to resolve these unmet or undeveloped parts of the personhood; and the resulting conflict between these forces demand to be heard. So let's change course here and say that one term for this attempt to resolve or reconcile these forces is to "relativize" them. You have this tension between the outer and inner worlds that is seeking an answer to this turmoil which might be thought of as a "new" consciousness or way of seeing or looking at things that is produced by this dark night-sea journey of the hero to find an answer.

Another thing that might be worth mentioning is for many these adventures often are much more of a solitary nature where one is separated from the collective society; in other words a long and journey; "alone in the wilderness"; if you will. For instance one example might be seen as Joseph Campbell's: The Call of The Monomyth or "The Dark Forrest Adventure of the Hero" Quest to find the Grail of his or her own life. These realizations are to be brought forth by the making of one's own pathway where no one has gone before; not society's way. (And as you say yes; indeed your own life informs you; but like the form of the " Adrianne Thread through the Labyrinth"; from this internal mental process in the finding of one's own way through all the trails and tribulations that go with the adventure.) Many of these tasks might take the form of psychological realizations of overcoming emotional traumas or personal hurdles of one kind or another; but the main directive as I understand it is to create a new understanding or way of; as you say; "experience of life"; that revitalizes; or is your "boon" for the world.

Now this point to me is the major difference of the later life task as opposed to the younger life version. The young person must create a life for themselves by coming into adulthood; or as Joseph said; becoming a self-responsible adult. And as the life of this person evolves into maturity the taking on the various life-role tasks; such as raising children; having a career and so. But the later stage of this person then comes to the really big realization of loss of powers and all of the unrealized and suppressed baggage begins to surface along with the realization of death's approach. Then the deeper dimensions of the "Individuation - Process" begin to present themselves.

Now as you say; at least from a westerner's point of view; no one can tell another what that way may actually be; and from Joseph Campbell's interpretation the point I believe he is trying to make is that by going on the adventure to "bring back the boon" that heals oneself; i.e, or the wholeness achieved by this act one also heals the world; or as you say the "compassion" shared within it's suffering. ( I remember Joseph saying once that: ("Guilt" is what is wiped out by the myth); and I believe he was saying by following this process; not by the guilt produced by doing what the world wants; but by following the nobility of the heart that springs from inside; one changes the world as well as themselves.

Now I realize that "transcendence" is the topic of the thread and by interjecting my view or interpretation of "Individuation" may have not quite been in line with how you were trying to incorporate into your view. And I certainly meant no disrespect. But I also am familiar enough with Cindy's view; (not speaking for her of course); that I felt her voice should also be heard on this as well considering how much work and effort she has put into these forums even through my description was not up to par with hers. So I thought by maybe taking a different approach with this topic just now perhaps a little different perspective might emerge.

(I realize this is not totally answering all the points you were trying to make so I hope you'll forgive this rather long detour); And even though this may seem like a rather disjointed explanation of the term: "Individuation". Perhaps by mixing many of these various metaphors and aspects of Joseph Campbell's and Carl Jung's themes the point I'm trying to get at is seeing this concept as a continuing process throughout the totality of life that takes on various forms until we die. For in the end Individuation to me is the "inner" hero's journey towards wholeness from answering the souls high call to adventure to become the person one was meant to be; and the realizations that are achieved from this (process) along the way.


At any rate I won't spend any more time diverting the thread from it's original topic but I felt I needed to offer some extra clarity.




Namaste :)


______________________________________________________________________


After sleeping on this post I think anymore discussion about this subject might be better served in either the "Weeds" thread or perhaps by creating a separate thread topic.

Cheers
:idea:
Last edited by JamesN. on Mon Mar 07, 2016 1:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Roncooper » Sun Mar 06, 2016 3:52 pm

James thank you for the thoughtful post. All I can say is that I am obsessed with the functions of the psyche and am trying to bring them into balance not only for the individual, but for society as a whole.

It seems to me that this is the individuation process.
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Post by JamesN. » Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:33 pm

Roncooper wrote:James thank you for the thoughtful post. All I can say is that I am obsessed with the functions of the psyche and am trying to bring them into balance not only for the individual, but for society as a whole.

It seems to me that this is the individuation process.

Thank you Ron. Your gracious reply is most appreciated. (And yes; I very much agree with your statement.) :)
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Post by Roncooper » Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:11 am

James,

The more I think about it the more surprised I am that Jung so accurately predicted my behavior in old age. Its a bit scary.
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Post by JamesN. » Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:06 am

Roncooper wrote:James,

The more I think about it the more surprised I am that Jung so accurately predicted my behavior in old age. Its a bit scary.
Indeed Ron. As a matter of fact Joseph Campbell makes a reference to this focus of Jung on the adult later years in one of the audio lectures; (I can't remember which one at the moment). He mentions something about what Freud said to Jung when they were collaborating together where he says: "Don't bother with anyone over the age of 35 because they were already spent and it would be just too difficult to reconstruct anything." Then Joe said: "This is where Jung starts to get really interesting"; within this focus of his own material.

Speaking of which I've been reading about (the Shadow) and it's relationship to the "Individuation" process and I just came across a really interesting PDF that I'm going to post the link to in the "Weeds" thread so as not to distract anymore from this Transcendence thread.


Cheers :)
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Post by Roncooper » Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:43 pm

On this thread, on March 1st I mentioned the philosopher Jacob Needleman. I studied some of his writings and I think he make some interesting point.

He was raised in the Jewish tradition, but as an adult he became an atheist, an opinion he kept for many years.

He said that atheism was useful for cleaning out all of the religious junk he was exposed to as a child. When he was older he reflected on the little religious experiences he had during his life. As he went deeper these experiences became more meaningful and he continued his musing. In time he concluded that "Thinking about God is to the souls as breathing is to the body."

As I said on March 1st, I don't take this literally, but evidently he found new meaning beyond his atheism.

I like the idea about the usefulness of atheism and also the idea that we should continue to dig deep looking for meaning.
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Post by romansh » Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:00 pm

The other thing about having things like love, compassion and empathy as transcendent qualities, I think we should also then include things like fear, hatred and disgust.

These are two sides of the same coin.
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Post by romansh » Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:17 pm

I read the phrase transcending materialism and the immediately thought how pointless.

If we mean by transcendence beyond categories of thought then possibly I find there can be periods perhaps up to a minute I can go without thought. Perhaps those trained in meditation can do it longer.

Then of course we have those flickers of time between thought as well.

How this transcends materialism is beyond me.
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Post by Andreas » Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:30 pm

Those Einstein principles of bending time and space certainly seem to transcend materialism. :lol:
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Post by romansh » Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:08 pm

Andreas wrote:Those Einstein principles of bending time and space certainly seem to transcend materialism. :lol:
Does the smiley face mean you are joking?

I certainly hope so ;)
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Post by Andreas » Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:30 pm

Not joking Rom. I am laughing because there are so many concepts in science that transcend materialism or look more like the immaterial that is actually funny to say it is pointless.

Anyway I know where this conversation is going, nevermind. :)
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Post by Roncooper » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:38 am

Rom wrote,
I read the phrase transcending materialism and the immediately thought how pointless.
I agree it is pointless for you and a complete waste if time.

I imagine everyone could make a long list if topics it would be pointless for them to consider.
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Post by romansh » Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:43 pm

Andreas wrote:Not joking Rom. I am laughing because there are so many concepts in science that transcend materialism or look more like the immaterial that is actually funny to say it is pointless.

Anyway I know where this conversation is going, nevermind. :)
So our GPS is based on a transcendent property of the universe?

It is funny when we get a better understanding of our material universe it becomes beyond all categories of thought?
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Post by romansh » Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:47 pm

Roncooper wrote:Rom wrote,
I read the phrase transcending materialism and the immediately thought how pointless.
I agree it is pointless for you and a complete waste if time.

I imagine everyone could make a long list if topics it would be pointless for them to consider.
Quite ... When we discard our immediate intuition and look more carefully at the facts of the material world our perception of that material world changes.
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