What do you understand by "Transcendence"?

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Roncooper
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Post by Roncooper » Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:27 pm

Rom wrote,
Quite ... When we discard our immediate intuition and look more carefully at the facts of the material world our perception of that material world changes.
And when we continue to explore with an open mind it changes again.
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Post by romansh » Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:05 am

Roncooper wrote:Rom wrote,
Quite ... When we discard our immediate intuition and look more carefully at the facts of the material world our perception of that material world changes.
And when we continue to explore with an open mind it changes again.
That is why I am an agnostic and not a panentheist
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Post by Roncooper » Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:56 am

If God dropped by and said hello, would you still be an agnostic?
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. -Isaac Newton
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Post by romansh » Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:11 am

Roncooper wrote:If God dropped by and said hello, would you still be an agnostic?
Call me Thomas.
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Post by Roncooper » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:49 pm

A while ago I was arguing with a fellow, on another site, about the nature of love. He said love evolved to ensure our survival. I replied that it does help, but we also love things that are bad for us. And then there is love for its own sake, divine love.

We stopped after a few replies.

It seems to me that the intellect is incapable of grasping things like love, honor, beauty, and consciousness and so it comes up with an explanation to define them. For it any explanation is better than none, no matter how lousy.

On this thread I have posted that I think we are driven by transcendent experiences like love and beauty and not by practical matters. We are driven to recreate these experiences and this shapes our brains, bodies, and lives.

With James' help, I found a talk by Campbell that explains this much better than I can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2orzew5j4QY
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. -Isaac Newton
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Post by JamesN. » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:50 pm

Hey Ron; glad it was helpful. I left a response to this back in the "Odd Comments" thread where it originated.

https://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic ... 4690#94690

And for those interested this link to the JCF YouTube channel holds this one as well as many more clips covering a great deal of Joseph's themes from his many lectures over the years. This vault contains a vast treasure trove of material and is an invaluable resource for those seeking further information concerning Joseph Campbell's ideas. (Just keep hitting the load button at the bottom of the page for more clips. There are several hundred listed at least.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2orzew5j4QY
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Post by romansh » Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:02 pm

Roncooper wrote:A while ago I was arguing with a fellow, on another site, about the nature of love. He said love evolved to ensure our survival. I replied that it does help, but we also love things that are bad for us. And then there is love for its own sake, divine love.
I think your friend was careless with his wording. Evolution resulted in a process which we call love. The process of love allows for improved chances of imperfect replication. When the environment ceases to "select" for a love like process, then the love process will dissipate over a period of time.

Ultimately if we have divine love, then we also recognize the divine hate, fear indifference that from time to time crop up in humanity. If we think of existence as divine, I have no problem with this as it is consistent with pantheism. And as Richard Dawkins has it pantheism is sexed up atheism.

I will take a look at the video now.

edit
the video does not appear to be available ... at least not on my machine.
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Post by Roncooper » Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:56 pm

Rom said.
I think your friend was careless with his wording. Evolution resulted in a process which we call love. The process of love allows for improved chances of imperfect replication. When the environment ceases to "select" for a love like process, then the love process will dissipate over a period of time.
This is no different than his argument.

I say that love, beauty, honor, compassion, consciousness, and intellect drive human evolution, not survival.

It is too bad that you cannot see the YouTube talk.

Ultimately if we have divine love, then we also recognize the divine hate, fear indifference that from time to time crop up in humanity.
This statement demonstrates that materialism is a bankrupt philosophy, utterly clueless about human reality.


And as Richard Dawkins has it pantheism is sexed up atheism.
This is really funny.So atheists believe the cosmos has a cosmic personality.
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Post by Andreas » Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:53 am

Sorry to rain on your parades but reality is not one thing only..
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Post by Roncooper » Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:46 pm

Please explain.
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Post by Andreas » Sat Jul 02, 2016 4:39 pm

We do things for survival and love.. Havent met a human being who doesnt need to eat, yeap that is survival. Also almost everyone will have what campbell called in his lecture "a zeal", yeap even the modern industrial civilization we have created was born by a belief that we are making the world a better place.

So I guess we live for both. Comprende?
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Post by Roncooper » Sat Jul 02, 2016 5:34 pm

I agree completely. As I said love helps us survive and it does so much more.
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Post by Andreas » Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:06 pm

Too much love and compassion can be destructive too, Ron. Also I cannot love the whole world. Some people I love others I hate. Only Jesus can love everyone lol. And I am no Jesus, thank God.
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Post by romansh » Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:37 pm

Andreas wrote:We do things for survival and love.. Havent met a human being who doesnt need to eat, yeap that is survival. Also almost everyone will have what campbell called in his lecture "a zeal", yeap even the modern industrial civilization we have created was born by a belief that we are making the world a better place.

So I guess we live for both. Comprende?
An ultra-materialist might argue survival and love are post hoc explanations of the physics that is going on. I am not suggesting these explanations [of survival and love] are not useful but we should be willing to treatment as metaphors much as you suggest we treat physics as a metaphor.
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Post by Andreas » Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:06 pm

Basically in my book I promote the "all in good measure" philosophy lol.

Like I said idealistic notions of the world dont fit well in my philosophy. Whether it comes from materialists or spiritualists, scientists or priests or anyone.

But what can you do one person sees something in the world another sees something else. One person says there is only one truth another says there are many... 8) :roll:
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki
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