What do you understand by "Transcendence"?

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romansh
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Post by romansh » Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:35 pm

Roncooper wrote: My definition of transcendence comes from materialism. Transcendence is everything materialists don't believe in. Of course I am being cute, but for me experiences like awe, beauty, love, and honor are transcendent experiences.
As someone with strong materialistic tendencies, I do believe that we often experience things like love, awe, beauty and even honor.
:)
I just don't think they are what the seem.
Roncooper wrote:IMHO the transcendence experience is not some exotic state, it is a common occurrence that turns life into a transcendent mystery.
So we have a cute definition attached to a mystery ... as a self-professed devout agnostic I can go for the mystery aspect (as opposed to a mystical aspect).
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
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Post by Clemsy » Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:43 pm

Campbell defines god as the personification of the transcendent mystery of existence, which is beyond all categories of thought.

It is not a "state." That's a category of thought. You can't even say it's an idea because that, too, is a category of thought.

Perhaps this will help...
1. A Cup of Tea

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas
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Post by romansh » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:21 pm

Clemsy wrote:Campbell defines god as the personification of the transcendent mystery of existence, which is beyond all categories of thought.

It is not a "state." That's a category of thought. You can't even say it's an idea because that, too, is a category of thought.

Perhaps this will help...
1. A Cup of Tea

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"
No not really Clemsy.
Does Nan-in think he has it?

Nan-in thinks he has something to show the professor.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
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Post by Clemsy » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:31 pm

Not at all.

Or perhaps a flower. But the professor has no room to see it.
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Post by romansh » Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:44 pm

Clemsy wrote:Not at all.

Or perhaps a flower. But the professor has no room to see it.
Never having met the said professor ...

I know we are in the realm of hypotheticals and metaphor.

I know we strive at times for Je ne sais pas, but a few crisp sayings from Carl Sagan are more than enough to displace the tea from my already overfull cup. ;)
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
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Post by Roncooper » Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:10 pm

I think this discussion is about different tools.

It seems to me that consciousness is like a pin hole camera that has everything in focus and the intellect is like a microscope. They have different uses.
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. -Isaac Newton
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Post by romansh » Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:37 pm

Roncooper wrote:I think this discussion is about different tools.

It seems to me that consciousness is like a pin hole camera that has everything in focus and the intellect is like a microscope. They have different uses.
To me consciousness is an illusion, a wonderful illusion, but an illusion nevertheless.

Transcendent ... is a bit like the Emperor's new clothes, nada ... and yet beyond all categories of thought. At least for me.

I find transcendence bit of a conversation stopper, some people gather around and tell of its finery. It takes the empty minded child to ask of its reality.
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Post by Roncooper » Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:32 pm

:)
Last edited by Roncooper on Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Clemsy » Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:35 pm

Easy there Ron! Remember that whole "higher order" thing in the conversation!

Rom is entitled to his view of transcendence. There really is no need to do more than state your view and move on to another topic when necessary. Otherwise you wind of on the merry-go-round. You know, like the free will thread! lol

Clemsy
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Post by Roncooper » Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:12 am

:)
Last edited by Roncooper on Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by romansh » Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:34 am

Clemsy wrote:Easy there Ron! Remember that whole "higher order" thing in the conversation!

Rom is entitled to his view of transcendence. There really is no need to do more than state your view and move on to another topic when necessary. Otherwise you wind of on the merry-go-round. You know, like the free will thread! lol

Clemsy
Hi Clemsy
I am not totally unaware that my posting style promotes strong responses.
I try to write as neutrally and accurately* as possible ... though I suppose it comes across as cold at times, and even as arrogant and ignorant.

Nevertheless, I am pretty good at not holding grudges, even though arrogantly I say so myself ... :)

Ron,
I am not sure you care, but I think you are OK.

* I do need to proof read more.
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Post by Clemsy » Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:00 pm

Roncooper wrote:Really! He kicked you in the teeth.
I appreciate the sentiment, Ron, but I try not to take this stuff personally. The result is only a merry-go-round (a very boring ride after a spin or two) and a battle of shadow projection.

Which is less than productive, and also not pleasant.

Besides, I'm a high school English teacher. My skin has gotten quite thick. Yesterday morning a problematic young man was blasting his music in the hallway. I politely asked him to turn it off. He ignored me. I followed him, with my pineapple yogurt in hand, and repeated my direction. He responded with variations of the F bomb, which shut the whole busy hallway up. I continued to follow him until another teacher gave me his name, then I returned to my room with all the information I needed. No biggee. I've been called worse by better. lol
Last edited by Clemsy on Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Clemsy » Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:01 pm

Hi Clemsy
I am not totally unaware that my posting style promotes strong responses.
I try to write as neutrally and accurately* as possible ... though I suppose it comes across as cold at times, and even as arrogant and ignorant.
I think the former more so than the latter, Rom :-)
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas
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Post by Roncooper » Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:12 pm

Clemsy,

I would not have had the patience to deal with that student. There are a number of reasons why I would not be a good teacher and patience is just one of them.
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. -Isaac Newton
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Post by Roncooper » Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:22 pm

I would like to post about the transcendent experience of the intellect.

The intellect plays an important role enhancing the transcendent experiences of the others of Jung's functions. It creates dreams of a soul mate for our emotions, dreams of victory for our wills, and dreams of the perfect performance for our artistic sensuality.

It also creates mathematics and theories to help us manipulate the world, but the question is, what does it do for itself?

After spending some time researching this it seems to me that the meditation for the intellect is to think about the transcendent mystery as a whole. The intellect typically focuses on pieces of the mystery in an attempt to serve society, or for some less noble reason, but these experiences do not help the intellect along it's path.

Thinking about the mystery as a whole forces the intellect to put away it's dissection tools and became a student again. This "thinking meditation" can have very positive effects. Just as a meditation that quiets the mind can center the consciousness, thinking about the whole can provide the intellect with a sense of belonging.

This sense can be a powerful experience for the individual. The philosopher Jacob Needleman, who was an atheist most of his life, said, "Thinking about God is to the soul as breathing is to the body." Of course I don't take this literally, but it does describe the potential importance of this meditation for an intellectual.

This meditation can also be taken a step further. People who do dream analysis talk about asking questions of the voice behind the dreams, and the intellectual meditation is similar. During the meditation the student imagines having a Socratic dialog with the mystery, and this can lead to an enriching experience. It can lead to what the psychologist Abraham Maslow called the "precipitation of insights." I love that description. One can imagine new insights splashing on the thirsty intellect.

This meditation can help free and open the intellect and help the person along the path to individuation.

I really don't care what the label makers call this meditation. It is as powerful as Buddhist meditation.
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. -Isaac Newton
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