What do you understand by "Transcendence"?

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romansh
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Post by romansh » Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:10 pm

Andreas wrote:Basically in my book I promote the "all in good measure" philosophy lol.

Like I said idealistic notions of the world dont fit well in my philosophy. Whether it comes from materialists or spiritualists, scientists or priests or anyone.

But what can you do one person sees something in the world another sees something else. One person says there is only one truth another says there are many... 8) :roll:
I would agree, if what you are trying to say is, we can never be sure.

People often get accused of being materialists on this and other threads. But here is my personal take on this aspect.
  1. 1) I can't be sure there is a material world beyond my perception. And here we go into all sorts of solipsistic arguments ... brain in a vat, holographic universe etc. While I accept these as remote possibilities they are not my raison d'etre ... so to speak.
    2) I accept there is a physical reality beyond my perception, and that my perception is only a poor reflection of that reality, but nevertheless a reflection of that reality.
    3) Any words, models, myths, maps or metaphors that I use to describe my perceptions are incomplete and perhaps even inaccurate.
    4) I think Occam's razor is a good start, and Occam himself failed to use it, when he used it as justification for a god or gods. I think Einstein's razor, simple as possible but not simpler than possible, is an even better start.
Having said that, it does not mean some myths or models (or interpretations thereof) don't describe our existence more accurately than others.

And getting back to transcendence ... if we put it into words (like love, compassion etc) then that is not it. I don't have the foggiest of what transcendence is, but I do have a really good sense of what it is not.
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Post by Andreas » Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:56 pm

Then according to your logic Rom. I can say, I have a really good sense what life it is not. And life it is not a bunch of chemicals. lol

Personally I dont think that transcendence should be equated with human ideals. In the same way I dont think it should be reduced to a bunch of chemicals and simplistic explanations about it.

Thing is its an experience. Anyone can have it and I believe that the scientists who find all these great discoveries are in sort of transcendence when they do. And artists who create all this beautiful art. And spectators who are watching a mesmerizing play.

I have felt it many times, its like the world around us dissolves, I mean the actual concerns we have about the world. Personally I feel it mostly when I am watching a good movie or reading a good book its like everything makes sense. There is coherence in that world.

So yeah... Whatever...
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Post by romansh » Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:58 pm

Andreas wrote:Then according to your logic Rom. I can say, I have a really good sense what life it is not. And life it is not a bunch of chemicals. lol

Personally I dont think that transcendence should be equated with human ideals. In the same way I dont think it should be reduced to a bunch of chemicals and simplistic explanations about it.

Thing is its an experience. Anyone can have it and I believe that the scientists who find all these great discoveries are in sort of transcendence when they do. And artists who create all this beautiful art. And spectators who are watching a mesmerizing play.

I have felt it many times, its like the world around us dissolves, I mean the actual concerns we have about the world. Personally I feel it mostly when I am watching a good movie or reading a good book its like everything makes sense. There is coherence in that world.

So yeah... Whatever...
You can say whatever comes into your mind.
You can say we should not we should not be reduced a simplistic explanation of a bunch of chemicals. And I agree with you. But to deny we are chemicals is to me false. We are an unimaginably complex bunch of chemicals, so complex we find higher order approximations of ourselves. We talk of psyches, love, arrogance, hate, all sorts of attributes ... and these are sometimes useful approximations. Especially when we are anthropomorphizing one another.

And regarding feeling transcendence ... are discussing bliss or transcendence?

And there is a coherence in this world regardless of whether we feel it or not.
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Post by Roncooper » Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:18 pm

We are chemicals and so much more. The immanent and transcendent environment became us, and this environment is a mystery. Most people have experienced this mystery in a way that points beyond chemicals. Experiences that are personally meaningful and enriching.

This can be the experience of beautiful music or it can be the experience of God. These experiences vary. They can be intellectual, emotional, intuitive, etc. They can be a moment of bliss or a life changing rapture.

Campbell says we are informed by these experiences.

In my opinion, anyone who focuses their attention on the experiences they have had will open to the mystery. These experiences might be movies, nature, music, or love, but for a time they represent everything. They embody the whole immanent and transcendent environment.
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. -Isaac Newton
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Post by Andreas » Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:25 pm

You can say we should not we should not be reduced a simplistic explanation of a bunch of chemicals. And I agree with you. But to deny we are chemicals is to me false. We are an unimaginably complex bunch of chemicals, so complex we find higher order approximations of ourselves. We talk of psyches, love, arrogance, hate, all sorts of attributes ... and these are sometimes useful approximations. Especially when we are anthropomorphizing one another. - Rom
We are not chemicals. Our bodies are composed of chemicals and chemical may alter consciousness but this is irrelevant. All these years I never understood your point that "we are chemicals." Does it matter?

Also we can't anthropomorphize one another we are already humans lol. But we give human attributes to something that is beyond comprehension so that it can make sense.
And regarding feeling transcendence ... are discussing bliss or transcendence? - rom
Bliss, transcendence, is there a difference?
And there is a coherence in this world regardless of whether we feel it or not. - Rom
Yeah but if iam not there to experience/feel it what is the point of it. :P
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Post by romansh » Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:23 pm

Andreas wrote: We are not chemicals. Our bodies are composed of chemicals and chemical may alter consciousness but this is irrelevant.
I am not sure here ... are you saying if we took the irrelevant chemicals away, Andreas would exist in some form or another? From my point of view there is no ghost in the machine.
Andreas wrote: All these years I never understood your point that "we are chemicals." Does it matter?
Nothing matters in the great scheme of things, but if we have a wish to understand reality then it pays (I think) to have a good sense of what this "I" is (and what it is not).
Andreas wrote:Also we can't anthropomorphize one another we are already humans lol. But we give human attributes to something that is beyond comprehension so that it can make sense.
From a semantic point of view you are absolutely right. But this misses my point completely.
Andreas wrote:Bliss, transcendence, is there a difference?
I must admit, I don't think transcendence is bliss. For me bliss would be closer to following one's dharma and not fighting it.
Andreas wrote:Yeah but if I am not there to experience/feel it what is the point of it. :P
There is no point in the greater scheme of things. Points are just abstractions along the path.
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Post by Andreas » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:58 pm

Erm... Sigh... So because we know that our bodies are composed of chemicals we understand reality... I dont know... Might be a sufficient answer for you.

But try to understand what others are saying also.

Sure there is no ghost in the machine but then again there is no machine without a ghost. And before you jump into any conclusion let me explain it in your language. A machine without a ghost is a like a computer without a software... There is no point for it albeit an abstraction still a reality.. :lol:
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Post by romansh » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:14 pm

Andreas wrote:Erm... Sigh... So because we know that our bodies are composed of chemicals we understand reality... I dont know... Might be a sufficient answer for you.

But try to understand what others are saying also.

Sure there is no ghost in the machine but then again there is no machine without a ghost. And before you jump into any conclusion let me explain it in your language. A machine without a ghost is a like a computer without a software... There is no point for it albeit an abstraction still a reality.. :lol:
A Tree.
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Post by Andreas » Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:16 pm

For good or ill we are not trees. We are humans, we philosophize, analyze, observe, mythologize, fall in love and experience pain..

And after all this time, after endless pages of conversation and so many years of trying to explain to us the nature of reality and science, you come and tell me that points are abstractions and that we are trees. Somewhere here I take a break even though I can still make an argument that a tree is not without a ghost.

So yeah.. Whatever Rom. Have a good one! :)
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Post by romansh » Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:00 pm

Andreas wrote: I can still make an argument that a tree is not without a ghost.
The tree's software and hardware are one.

Good luck with your duality Andreas. :)
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Post by Andreas » Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:18 pm

Don't need luck I am one with my duality. :D
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Post by romansh » Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:20 pm

Andreas wrote:I was trying to be funny.. jeez.. rom..
And I got the impression you were trying to curtail discussion.

My bad.
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Post by romansh » Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:19 pm

Is this a transcendent moment?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n25czHfojyU

Our fundamental particles in action.
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