Death

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zoe
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Post by zoe » Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:44 pm

Yeah, believing that death is the end is just another belief I guess...
Hardly seems productive.
the experience of eternity right here and now, in all things, whether thought of as good or as evil, is the function of life. - Joseph Campbell
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Post by Andreas » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:50 am

Interesting Zoe... And can we have an experience of here and now if we are swarmed by thoughts of death? I wonder if thinking about death all the time is not productive either.

Btw I agree with you zoe. When you say that we should be aware of temporality or our own mortality... But I disagree when you say that we don't need a symbolic life. I mean it happens anyway seems to me.
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Post by zoe » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:02 pm

But I disagree when you say that we don't need a symbolic life. I mean it happens anyway seems to me.
Actually nothing against a symbolic life in particular. Just think it worth noting that in some situations a symbolic take on death is a luxury one may not always have come the cold grey light of dawn.
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Post by Andreas » Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:49 am

Anyway... Nandu asked for thoughts, I offered my experience and thoughts so..

Best wishes to all of you.
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Post by JamesN. » Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:34 am

Hey folks. Cindy has posted a couple of links on this subject at the " Jung in the Weeds " thread you may want to look at:

The Art of Dying Well: A Jungian Perspective on Death and Dying
by Sue Mehrtens, Jungian Center for the Spiritual Sciences


...and a good intro. to that book of essays I mentioned: Jung on Death and Immortality.
http://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic. ... 2564#92564

The article is excellent but I just picked up the book and haven't had a chance to get into it yet.

Cheers
:)



(James, I edited the forum link in this post. Cindy)
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Post by nandu » Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:08 pm

I just got the news that the wife of one of my friends passed away suddenly. Quite a young girl. Cardiac arrest was the villain.

It might be that she is existing in an astral plane somewhere. But I can't get over the fact that as far as we know, she is no more. :(

Nandu.
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Post by JamesN. » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:02 pm

nandu wrote:I just got the news that the wife of one of my friends passed away suddenly. Quite a young girl. Cardiac arrest was the villain.

It might be that she is existing in an astral plane somewhere. But I can't get over the fact that as far as we know, she is no more. :(

Nandu.

( Nandu I am so very sorry. I haven't been as perceptive lately as I would like and when I first saw your post I didn't quite grasp what you were saying; my apologies for that. ) I can't disagree with your statement about this; ( who can say ); because as you mention this is a dimension we just cannot know about. And as you have also stated it is ( speculative ) at best from whatever direction one approaches it. That said however here is a quote from the above Jungian article I mentioned that might be worth considering even if it is seen as " conjecture or speculative ".

How Jung Suggests We View Death



First, as noted above, Jung admits death is a mystery, something we cannot completely understand, describe, explain or image. Death throws up a question that we cannot answer. But, for all the frustration that implies, we must try to grapple with it. Why? Jung replies: “Not to have done so is a vital loss. For the question … is the age-old heritage of humanity: an archetype, rich in secret life, which seeks to add itself to our own individual life in order to make it whole.”[32]

Death is an archetype, one of the experiences we all have, like birth, growing, creating, aging. As an archetype it has intent, i.e. it wants something from us. It seeks to generate behaviors.[33] Like what? Reflection, introspection, a turning within, tending to our soul, appreciating things psychic, like dreams and intuitions, and a deepening of our love of mystery. Death asks us to integrate within ourselves more of reality, including that aspect of ourselves that exists outside space and time. In this way it strives to enrich individual life and make it more whole.[34]

Death also prompts us to become more self-aware, to create more consciousness. Death wants us to use it as a goad to developing more of our potential.[35] Jung experienced this in his near-death experience, when he saw what he had been and what he had lived, and it all was a fait accompli. And he had no regrets.[36]

As the essay on the concept of the enantiodromia noted,[37] Jung stressed the need to hold the tension of opposites. Opposites are found everywhere, in both consciousness and in the unconscious. So, if we have life, we must also have its opposite, death. One of the criticisms Jung would have about our contemporary American culture is its one-sidedness about this pair of opposites, with our almost complete focus on life, and denial of death. We must evolve a culture that can view death as one half of the soul’s experience, every bit as much a part of living as physical existence is.

In undertaking this cultural evolution, we don’t have to reinvent the wheel. We can draw on the millennia-long experience of focusing on the soul that occurred during the Middle Ages (c. 500-1500 CE), when society was attuned more to things intangible than to the world of matter. A premium was put on soul-tending and, as one part of this process, a whole body of literature arose describing how to prepare for death.
As Cindy suggests: " Food for Thought ".

I don't know any more or less than anyone else about this topic other than from my own subjective thoughts and experience; and along with survival it is probably the single most thought about component of human life. Although love might be the most important; to me death is the most difficult. But since it is also a major part of the life process we have no choice but to attempt to assimilate it. At any rate; the idea of whether there is existence in some sort of " astral " plane or not I don't think is as important as how one integrates what they interpret as their own sense of death into their life experience because that in the end is what is going to determine one's own sense of " meaning " of what is drawn out of " living ". ( This to me is what Jung is trying to suggest and a reasonably thoughtful way on how to approach it I think. :idea: )


I'm not sure whether this perspective addresses your concerns given it is not based on physical science; but I thought it might be worth sharing since it deals with the psychological aspect.


Namaste
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Post by romansh » Fri Sep 05, 2014 1:10 am

"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
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Post by Andreas » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:47 am

“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki
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Post by cadfael » Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:23 pm

We for the most part do not mind going to sleep. I think that death is the same as sleep. We are not aware anymore. I have seen people dying while drugged in the hospital. They know nothing.
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Post by cadfael » Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:14 pm

Actually it is best to keep an open mind regarding death. No human can really tell us what the death experience is. We could be immortal. Who knows? Joseph Campbell merely had his opinion regarding his lack of interest concerning living beyond death.
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Post by romansh » Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:45 pm

cadfael wrote:Actually it is best to keep an open mind regarding death. No human can really tell us what the death experience is. We could be immortal. Who knows? Joseph Campbell merely had his opinion regarding his lack of interest concerning living beyond death.
While in a sense this is true ... cadfael.
But if we extrapolate from what we know of the material world, eg the second law of thermodynamics in particular, then I am fairly optimistic there is no afterlife in the sense most people mean it.

This of course raises the question does a non material existence coexist with the material world and if it does how does it interact with the material world? And if it does interact, can we not consider it part of the material world?
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
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