Nietzsche on Mythic versus Conceptual Thinking

Do you have a conversation topic that doesn't seem to fit any of the other conversations? Here is where we discuss ANYTHING about Joseph Campbell, comparative mythology, and more!

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Post by Roncooper » Tue May 17, 2016 4:26 pm

Tony,

Thank you or your reply. You posted some very interesting ideas. I wonder if the mythologem came through Egypt.

I strongly agree with the statement about priest and shaman. This is a major issue with organized religion today. The authentic spiritual leader needs experience that can't be found in seminary school.

To make a comparison to the world of art. The great artists go beyond their educations in order to create timeless beauty.. The voices we hear from organized religion are like pop stars who have not experience the path.
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. -Isaac Newton
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Post by JamesN. » Tue May 17, 2016 7:29 pm

Roncooper wrote:Tony,

Thank you or your reply. You posted some very interesting ideas. I wonder if the mythologem came through Egypt.

I strongly agree with the statement about priest and shaman. This is a major issue with organized religion today. The authentic spiritual leader needs experience that can't be found in seminary school.

To make a comparison to the world of art. The great artists go beyond their educations in order to create timeless beauty.. The voices we hear from organized religion are like pop stars who have not experience the path.
Tony; thanks for your very helpful response. You covered a lot of ground in a very comprehensive, succinct, and informative way. (Sorry but I'm at work and can't post much. I don't multi-task very well either.)

Concerning Shaman I saw a very interesting piece on Public TV the other night where some archeologists were viewing some of the ancient Great Painted Caves and offered the idea that the acoustics were also a major feature as well as the drawings; much the same way a Cathedral served the church in Mass. They then demonstrated some of the animal sounds and the effect was absolutely mesmerizing. (One wonders what some of the early ceremonies must have been like.)

Ron; aside from your point of experience; (with which I agree); this quote seems to address at least some of what you just mentioned.



Joseph:
" You know, the virtue manager is the real curse of the modern world, I think. The one who's got rightousness on his side and knows that everyone else is to be corrected ". ( From an interview of Joseph Campbell by Tom Collins - " In Context, A Quarterly of Humane Sustainable Culture - Winter 1985/ 19 " ).
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Post by tonyd » Tue May 17, 2016 9:06 pm

Hi Ron, yes I think Campbell in his Atlas Book (The Way of the Animal Powers I) judges that such tales like Unumbotte, first Man, Snake and the Tree and The Creator and the Tahu Tree came up the Nile to Egypt and then onward to the Levant.

Hi James, here an archaeologist, Joachim Hahn, plays a 42,000 year old flute made from mammoth ivory in one of the caves in Swabia, Germany where they found. As you say, the acoustics are extraordinary. http://www.miotas.org/audio/paleolithic_flute.mp3
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Post by JamesN. » Wed May 18, 2016 1:17 am

Tony:
Hi James, here an archaeologist, Joachim Hahn, plays a 42,000 year old flute made from mammoth ivory in one of the caves in Swabia, Germany where they found. As you say, the acoustics are extraordinary. http://www.miotas.org/audio/paleolithic_flute.mp3
Wow Tony; that must have felt like a young violin student playing a "Stradivarius" for the first time. Just imagine being in a place like that with that particular instrument channeling some ancient spirit from that long ago. Thank you very much for sharing that. (Simply "Unbelievable"!) 8)
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Post by JamesN. » Fri May 20, 2016 6:56 pm

Tony; Clemsy turned me on to David Miller awhile back with whom you may already be familiar with. Here is an article about "Edges" I thought you might like that I think connects perfectly with the idea you posed in this thread of the difference between the "Mythic and Conceptual" in several different ways. Ron and I discussed this piece briefly in another thread and I just reread again. If you haven't already seen this I think you'll really enjoy it. (Thanks again for the flute piece BTW; it was magnificent.)

http://dlmiller.mysite.syr.edu/Edges.htm


Cheers
:)
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Post by tonyd » Sat May 21, 2016 1:37 pm

Hi James,
Thank you, I've been a fan of David Miller ever since I heard him give the keynote address at the Study of Mythology symposium at Pacifica in 2012. He appeared at first an aged man but then drew up and radiated remarkable energy as he moved into his talk which was on the notion of 'do disturb' which he, partly tongue-in-cheek, advocated against the more normal message of 'do not disturb'.

I agree with everything that David wrote on the multitudinous nuances of 'edge' and 'edginess' but would have enjoyed it more if he simply told us more anecdotes about his experiences at the Eranos conferences and the insights that he picked up from the remarkable people that he met - although this merely reflects a bias in me toward the intuitive as opposed to the intellectual insight.

He mentioned Jung talking about return to an unconscious state after having completed the individuation process. This agrees with what Von Franz said about Jung later in his life when she used go to him for advice. His advice, she said, was always spontaneous and did not draw on any theories, or formulae, of knowledge and yet it always felt most apposite to the challenge she was confronted with.
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Post by JamesN. » Sun May 22, 2016 12:54 pm

Yes Tony; nicely stated.

Without assigning any extra meanings here I think you pointed out a particularly relevant and important aspect about the complexity of modern life that has overtaken and hijacked many of the more technically advanced cultures. And that is: (so now it seems that man must not only navigate the "multitudinous nuances" of an ever increasing chorus of social and technological demands; he must do so within the clouded nebulousness of his own neurosis while relying upon his own "intuition" to seek the clarity he needs to make sense of his world). Not the best description; so please forgive my rather clumsy attempt with this.

Jung's ability to breakdown and identify the way these various internal mental mechanics accomplish this task is indeed remarkable; and within this process of individuation truly I think new hope is offered for humanity to reconnect with itself to restore the harmony of it's own inner natural order and sensibilities.


Tony:
I agree with everything that David wrote on the multitudinous nuances of 'edge' and 'edginess' but would have enjoyed it more if he simply told us more anecdotes about his experiences at the Eranos conferences and the insights that he picked up from the remarkable people that he met - although this merely reflects a bias in me toward the intuitive as opposed to the intellectual insight.

This brings to mind a somewhat embarrassing but very enlightening moment I had yesterday where upon after expressing a very convoluted point of view about something a friend gently suggested that I was becoming a little too self-absorbed and said softly: "You need to get out more often". One of things Joseph mentioned I think fit for me here is where he said: (we all get so involved with outer purposes that we forget that the "joy of living" is what it's all about).

Thank for your kind response.

Cheers
:)


Addendum; Correction: "The experience of being alive" I think is what Joseph actually said; but I'm pretty sure it was the same thing he was trying to get across.
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Post by Roncooper » Sun May 22, 2016 2:46 pm

I am on my way out the door and must be quick, but thinking about things is also a joy of living.
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. -Isaac Newton
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Post by JamesN. » Sun May 22, 2016 3:22 pm

Roncooper wrote:I am on my way out the door and must be quick, but thinking about things is also a joy of living.
Indeed Ron; a good point. (After further thought I'm redoing this post). Although there might be different approaches one could apply here; to me the mental state of contemplation or "reflection" can be a true compliment to life as in the title of Diane K. Osbon's wonderful book: "Reflection's on the Art of Living - A Joseph Campbell Companion".



(Addendum):

Here is the actual quote I was referring to:


We're so engaged in doing things to achieve purposes of outer value that we forget that the inner value, the rapture that is associated with being alive, is what it's all about.

Joseph Campbell
The Power of Myth with Bill Moyers
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Post by tonyd » Thu May 26, 2016 6:06 pm

Hi James,
I would second Ron's observation on thinking. I would add though that you do need to be more trusting of your own knowledge, experience and voice. You're inclined to qualify perfectly good insights - and articulations of such - with unnecessary self-deprecation.

It is useful to have some creative engagement ('playing') to complement deep introspection. You will remember that Jung, at a time of crisis when he could not find direction, started if I remember correctly, making things from stones he found on the lake shore like he did as a child. Later he went on to build, providing an outlet for the energy generated from internal ruminations, the house at Bollingen. His initial steps in both endeavours were simple and primitive. It was play.

Tony
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Post by JamesN. » Thu May 26, 2016 7:35 pm

Yes Tony; thank you for your thoughtful insights. It's difficult sometimes to see ourselves in the way that others do. I've been trying to understand and integrate "shadow" aspects lately that have played a profound part from the earliest parts of my life and it has not been an easy transition. Your constructive suggestions have been "extremely" helpful.
I would add though that you do need to be more trusting of your own knowledge, experience and voice. You're inclined to qualify perfectly good insights - and articulations of such - with unnecessary self-deprecation.
Indeed my photography has provided just what you described concerning " creative play" from what you mentioned about Jung; and fits this template almost perfectly. It has been invaluable on many levels not only from it's results; but has provided the space needed to assimilate much of my deep emotional content and the affirmation needed from my own personal experiences.
It is useful to have some creative engagement ('playing') to complement deep introspection. You will remember that Jung, at a time of crisis when he could not find direction, started if I remember correctly, making things from stones he found on the lake shore like he did as a child. Later he went on to build, providing an outlet for the energy generated from internal ruminations, the house at Bollingen. His initial steps in both endeavours were simple and primitive. It was play.



Without getting too dramatic or too personal; for myself this has involved a journey deep into "the cave" where the dark jewels glow; but this is also where the Dragon of one's own unrealized Shadow lives that guards them; and he must be met as an aspect of "one's own self". This has not been easy and at times it has seemed as if slogging through mud in a deep fog. As close as I can recall there is something Cindy use to say concerning the individuation process such as in the "Road to Athens" I mentioned earlier: "We are in a constant state of becoming which continues until we die; but also that it's not about the end results of wining or losing but what happens along the way."

(Thank you again and I will definitely think on your kind suggestions. Yes; this has been very helpful indeed.)
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