dragons (and maidens and knights)

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Raphael
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Post by Raphael » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

The fact that Bush went into Iraq for the reasons he did and in the manner he did seems to me most uncivilized. But the fact that he is being questioned (even if it is several years after the fact) and that he may yet be held accountable is a sign of civility.
Sometimes I feel as though I am watching a play unfold.
It was more than uncivilized Cliff...
Your Prez and the Neo-Cons should be in the box beside Saddam, you know it, I know it, most of the free world feels it.

The 1% of history we call civilized is the written history.
This is the epoch of the last 5000 years.
We are digressing...soon to a police state.
Have you heard of peak oil?
What we see in Iraq is not unlike the Nuremburg Trials. The Americans playing 'world police' holding court in Nuremburg holding doctors, scientists, anyone remotely connected with the Nazis.
Why?
The beginning of the ruse. To draw attention to the 'Final Solution'.

So while Americans were holding court in Europe back home the Blacks were still segregated.
No Cliff I believe it is about 'manufacturing consent' and it would be interesting to know if the swastika was suggested as a symbol so later it could be forever associated with a heinous crime.

Further attempt to replace symbols (right brain recognition) with signs (left brain recognition).

The Temple Priests wouldn't attempt that, would they?
Mind Control?

Namaste

Raphael

sorry ...back to the dragons.
_________________
ENERGY = GOD ... Share Him is the Message...
God can be neither created nor destroyed; he can only be transformed into other forms of God. However there is a penalty for committing sin, for transforming God and it is called Entropy.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Raphael on 2006-01-10 22:11 ]</font>
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Post by Raphael » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

I am quoting myself here from an earlier post becasue I want to add some new information. I have an update.
He (JC)argued that it is not science that has diminished human beings or divroced us from divinity. On the contrary,the new discoveries of science "rejoin us to the ancients" by enabling us to recognize in this whole universe "a reflection magnified of our own most inward nature; so that we are indeed its ears, its eyes, its thinking, and its speech..."
-Bill Moyers, Power of the Myth


So with Joe's approval and blessing I shall present what science says about Snakes/Serpents, Birds and Dragons.

For those of you who have studied physics this may resonate.

Light can travel essentially one of two ways.
As a Wave or as a Particle. (quanta or packet of particles)

Serpent = Wave
Bird = Particle

Serpent + Bird = Dragon

A Wave is also 'Bound' energy and Particles are 'Free' energy.

Dragons occur at the transition point or the axis mundi, it is the tirtha, the still point, the 4th chakra.
This would be where I think you would encounter dragons.
It is the point where we slay the dragon or the dragon defeats us.
The point also where mind over matter occurs.
Where quantum (the particle or bird) intersects with the relative field (the wave or snake).
We are trying to achieve inner thermodynamic equilibrium. Peace.
That is what slaying the dragon represents, this is what I feel.
Later in the thread I suggest that the serpent/snake vs. bird has the same significance as Satan vs. Jesus.
And yet on another thread I suggested Satan was Red and resided in the South with Hades, Fire was their element while true Blue Jesus I suggested resided in the North and spent TIME with Persephone. Water was their element.
And yet on another thread I suggested Jesus and Satan co-existed on the North-South axis. And then I placed Electro-magnetism in the North with Jesus and Nuclear Weak was under Satan's influence in the south. Physics has combined these 2 forces and they are know as Electro-Weak, they share the same axis.

And here is where it gets interesting.
EXODUS AND THE FORTY YEARS (EXODUS 12:34 AND AFTER)
At the head of 600,000 men, besides women and children, and heavily laden with the spoils of the Egyptians, Moses follows a way through the desert, indicated by an advancing pillar of alternating cloud and fire, and gains the peninsula of Sinai by crossing the Red Sea. A dry passage, miraculously opened by him for this purpose at a point to-day unknown, afterwards proves a fatal trap for a body of Egyptian pursuers, organized by Pharaoh and possibly under his leadership. The event furnishes the theme of the thrilling canticle of Moses.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10596a.htm

Remember I had positioned as comparatives the following thus...

Jesus/Persphone/Water/Blue/North/Electro-Magnetism /Bird/Particle

Vs.

Satan/Hades/Fire/Red/South/Nuclear-Weak/Serpent/Wave

So here instead of a N/S axis we are presented with a pillar or axis of alternating cloud and fire
Cloud would be interpreted as Water, wouldn't it?

Representing the energetic forces of cloud and fire I suggest we have not a dragon but we have the energetic parting of the Red Sea. (also a local event)
Moses and the Hebrews were allowed to pass and the Eygptians however met their fate here. This event could also suggest Moses had slain his inner dragons, he was victorious over the Egyptians and was now worthy to receive the two tablets of stone.

Evidently flying dragons in the desert did not fit the story line well.
(JRR Tolkien saw the potential, did not the eagles subdue the dragons?)

Namaste

Raphael
_________________
ENERGY = GOD
Thus the primordial Law of Thermodynamics says...
God can be neither created or destroyed, he can only be transformed into other forms of God. However there is a penalty for making vain graven images and it is called Entropy.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Raphael on 2006-01-26 13:36 ]</font>
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Post by Guest » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

about the parting of the sea by Moses, God parted the sea for Krishna's father when he was carrying the infant Krishna to Ayodhya. maybe there's a link between the two. a significance being that there it represents a passage to prosperity. moses did it for his people, Krishna''s father did it for his son.
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Post by Raphael » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

On 2006-02-03 08:41, Shamin wrote:
about the parting of the sea by Moses, God parted the sea for Krishna's father when he was carrying the infant Krishna to Ayodhya. maybe there's a link between the two. a significance being that there it represents a passage to prosperity. moses did it for his people, Krishna''s father did it for his son.
Shamin I went searching for the story of Krishna and the Banyan Tree and this is what I found...

I have highlighted some interesting passages in bold lettering.
In the chapters 10, 15-17 of the Bhagvata-Purana, there is an account of how Krishna as Kaliya-damana ("he who subdues the cobra") forced the serpent demon into submission:
'Krishna, the adventurous seven year old, came to this dangerous place and curiously peered into the depths. He brooded, "I shall vanquish this king of serpents and release the inhabitants of the country from their continual dread.
The boy then girded his loins, made his way up a tree, and jumped with great leap into the depths. Swimming about like a great strong elephant, he made a tumultuous sound which rattled Kaliya. Understanding it to be an attack upon himself, the mighty serpent immediately charged towards Krishna. For over two hours Krishna remained in the grip of the serpent, but then he freed himself and began to expand his body. When the serpent tried to hold on to Krishna, he felt an enormous strain, on account of which his coils slackened, and he had to loosen his hold. Grabbing the opportunity, Krishna pounced upon him as does Garuda swoop upon a snake. He leaped high into the sky and, landing on Kaliya's outspread hoods, began to dance.

By rhythmically stamping his feet on the serpent's heads he trampled Kaliya into submission. The waters of the pool lashed against the shore to provide the music and the waves kept pace with the beat. Finally, under the relentless pounding of Krishna's feet, Kaliya, gravely wounded, accepted defeat.'
The manner in which Krishna subdues Kaliya has a fascinating quality about it. The dance to victory, the effortless rhythm of the Almighty's pace of creation and destruction, the ease, the grace, the sheer play in the manifestations of the Lord's will, to which wind and water provide enchanted accompaniment, are beautifully brought out in the narrative. Indeed, this is the first inkling in textual material of Krishna as 'natwar' (the dancer).
Figuratively, the image of Krishna dancing over the serpent is a motif symbolizing the inverted tree of life with the outstretched hoods signifying its roots. Such a tree is mentioned in the Bhagvad Gita (15.1) "The universe (or human body) may be compared to an eternal tree that has its origin (or root) in the Supreme Being and its branches below in the cosmos. The Vedic hymns are the leaves of this tree. One who understands this tree is a knower of the Vedas."
The human body, a microcosmic universe or world, may be also compared to a beginningless and endless tree. Karma is the seed; the countless desires are its roots; five basic elements are its main branches; and the ten organs of perception and action are its sub-branches. Three modes of material nature (goodness, passion and ignorance) provide the nourishment, and sense pleasures are its sprouts. This is the terrestrial tree of life.
Thus, while the earthly tree derives its sustenance from the material world, the heavenly tree of life, the knowledge of which is the goal all the spiritual quest, subsists on the nourishment it derives from the sacred realm. By putting the spotlight on Kaliya's outreaching hoods, Krishna provided a potent motif signifying the restoration of cosmic order in the world. Indeed, this is the reason why Lord Vishnu incarnates himself periodically.
There is no ready experience in this world of such a tree. Nevertheless it can be perceived. It can be found for example beside a reservoir of water. We can see that the trees on the bank reflect upon the water with their branches down and roots up. In other words, the tree of this material world is only a reflection of the heavenly tree. Thus is our earthly sojourn but a reflection of our heavenly lives.
Additionally, Kaliya's name is derived from 'kala,' the word for time in Sanskrit, making this a dance of victory over time and death as well, or in other words, the triumph of the eternal over the transient.
Another endearing and simple image, with profound philosophical consequences, is that of the baby Krishna sucking his toe, lying on a banyan leaf. On a first glimpse, such a composition presents no extraordinary significance. It is just an ordinary adorable infant. But lo, when it is observed that the leaf, on which lies Krishna, is floating on a turbulent sea, do we realize that there is much more here than that meets the eye.
The legend behind such a conception is recounted in the Markandeya Purana:
'Before the beginning, there was an end: the end of the old era. . . Black clouds obstructed the sun and hurled lightning in every direction. Unrelenting rains lashed the ground. The seven rivers began to swell and the four oceans started to overflow. Waves as high as mountains drowned the earth. This was pralaya, the final dissolution of the world, before its regeneration. The sole witness to this deluge was Manu, the primordial man.
Suddenly, amongst all the confusion, Manu noticed a banyan leaf floating on the ocean, tossed by the waves. On this unlikely raft lay a chubby and adorable child, suckling his right toe, unperturbed by the calamity that had befallen the world. It was Krishna as Balaji, the newborn cosmic child.
The infant's heavenly smile negated the brutality of the pralaya (cosmic deluge). His compassionate glance reassured Manu that life would go on, convincing him that the world never ends, but only changes.
The infant then sucked Manu into his body. Inside Manu saw the entire universe and all that had been consumed by the deluge - the skies, the seas, the earth, gods, demons, humans, animals and plants. Manu thus realized that the child was none other than the cosmic man (Narayana) who had withdrawn the world into himself. Chanting the blessed name of Narayana, Manu became one with his savior and awaited rebirth in the new world. Thus was the whole manifested world consumed by Lord Vishnu, only to be recreated.

http://www.exoticindiaart.com/article/lordkrishna
So here Krishna is associated with quelling the inner demon/serpent and the element Water is paramount also in the symbolism.
Krishna having Blue skin is placed esoterically in the North with Jesus and Persephone, two others also representing the aspect of TIME in their respective myths. (Time is the 4th Dimension in SpaceTime)

Namaste

Raphael



_________________
ENERGY = GOD ... Share Him is the Message...
God can be neither created nor destroyed; he can only be transformed into other forms of God. However there is a penalty for committing sin, for transforming God and it is called Entropy.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Raphael on 2006-02-03 21:30 ]</font>
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Post by Guest » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Raphael, I know this story, and have seen the movie in which the fight with the serpent takes place. there is another name for the serpent, and its on the tip of my tongue. once i remember i'll let you know. But what you posted is one of the most significant events in Krishna's life. I'm glad you posted it and hope that many get to read it.

It could be a metaphor of one having to overcome his fear. As with most stories involving serpents, it's all about overcoming your fear. and when it succumbs to you, you may "dance." meaning that one may bask in glory. the glory of having to grow into a stronger being and above all, reaching a greater spiritual realm.
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Post by Guest » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

It is also believed that within Krishna's body, the order of the cosmos can be seen. When Krishna stole makhan (a sweet-sour type of curdled milk, which He loved)the ladies of the village told HIs mother, Yashoda, about it. When she approached him, she opened his mouth to see if he had any traces of the makhan. Instead, she was exposed to the order of the cosmos in his mouth. In it she could see all the universes, galaxies, planets, stars, demons, people, and even herself opening the mouth of her son.

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Post by Raphael » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Shamin I am in Peru and it did not take me long to find the Inca version of the dragon.
It is the Puma.

It is often depicted with a serpent coiled at its feet or around its body and a condor perched upon his head.

We also see versions of it attacking the serpent or the Puma itself being attacked by a condor.

There are no coincidences, are there Shamin?

namaste

Raphael

_________________
ENERGY = GOD ... Share Him is the Message...
God can be neither created nor destroyed; he can only be transformed into other forms of God. However there is a penalty for committing sin, for transforming God and it is called Entropy.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Raphael on 2006-04-08 15:10 ]</font>
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Post by creekmary » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Oh, I love dreams. I would like to participate. I don't know you and these are only impressions so I don't know if you would be offended.

The baby girl floating on a leaf that your wife embraces is something that is a part inside that has been damaged and been rejected in the past and is now accepted. An acceptance that allows you to show this part to your son (I bet there's been some sort of blockage) and start some sort of sharing.

Now then. Now there's something deeper behind that. Now that you've accepted "the baby". Not threatening, but a lot more primal. It's not even human, but it has aspects. "part fish, part alligator, part dragon."

The dragon I guess is sexual? The fish..food? The alligator. Hmmm. Alligators aren't necessarily a bad thing. He might try to tell you something.

Did it speak? Sometimes they'll try to tell you something really important if you can remember.

Anyway, I bet your uncle liked these parts of you and encouraged you and made you his "pet".

Anyway.

My 2cents.

Susan
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Post by creekmary » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

But, back to maidens and dragons and knights in shining armor.

I think the dragon energy becomes successfully subdued by the knight energy or you don't get the fair maiden. Mayhem ensues instead.

Think of all the qualities of the fair maiden. Whatever rule you use, they are the best. That's what's offered. The dragon doesn't get it.

By being stronger than the dragon, the knight still has all the dragon's power, but it's curbed and directed towards the maiden in protection and desire, love, etc. All those qualities that make up the perfect knight that conquers the dragon are what frees and captures the perfect maiden.

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Post by RavenHeart » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

On 2006-03-12 08:25, creekmary wrote:
But, back to maidens and dragons and knights in shining armor.

I think the dragon energy becomes successfully subdued by the knight energy or you don't get the fair maiden...

All those qualities that make up the perfect knight that conquers the dragon are what frees and captures the perfect maiden.
Right on, Susan.

Concerning the Western Dragon: the Dragon and the Maiden archetypes symbolize two sides of Feminine emotional power, either within the psyche of a man or within a woman. The Maiden aspect, as Susan wrote, is loving, wise, devoted, beautiful, pure, and virtuous. But more than a list of qualities, she is a real, tangible, living force within us all. On the other hand, the Dragon is destructive, devouring, cold-blooded, greedy, slothful, covetous, and wrathful. The Maiden is shown originally with the Dragon because, in Her unconscious form, the Feminine power is undifferentiated: She is both positive (striving toward consciousness) and negative (pulling for—or maintaining a state of—unconsciousness).

The Knight ("in shining armor")—the light of the focused Masculine—is the power that can discern and separate the positive aspect of the Feminine from the negative. Since the Feminine in and of herself is Wholeness—in a way, the darkness of the Feminine is violated by the light of the discriminating consciousness the masculine. The Feminine alone cannot and will not separate herself. Why? She is wholeness. Why should she violate herself by cutting herself in two?

Once the Maiden is liberated from the Dragon, however, the Feminine can work for the psyche by guiding us, sharing Her wisdom, and giving us a conscious awareness of our own inner divine love and devotion. Before this psychological event, Wisdom (Sophia) is obscured, occult. The Dragon aspect of the Feminine hordes Her treasures within the depths of the unconscious, not to be shared. It's a momentous event in the Western mind�s psychological evolution: The Dragon Slaying.

How can there be a sacred marriage between the Masculine and the Feminine if the Dragon is around or involved? The Primordial Feminine—the Great Mother—with all of Her manifest power and unconscious knowledge, can easily subdue an infantile Masculine consciousness and devour it. Or, She can trick the Masculine by showing him that He does not exist: that He is only one aspect of Her. This is why the Dragon, the Sphinx, and Baba Yaga all ask riddles of the heroic Masculine: to trick him into seeing His own non-existence and thereby stealing His power. If he gets ensnared in Her riddle, He will go mad, and be swallowed by the unconscious. This is being devoured by the Dragon. He could also try to know the Feminine by staring at her directly, without detachment. But this will only paralyze Him—take away His power—as Medusa paralyzed so many men before Perseus. Without detachment, the Masculine will see that He is Life�and the Great Mother Herself—and become absorbed into the unconscious. He cannot possibly know who He is without going mad according to Western understanding of madness. In this case, only through an indirect glance (via symbol, metaphor, archetype) can She be fathomed and can the psyche know what It is without losing its stability.*

For the Western psyche, only when the Masculine focuses itself into a single-pointed lance, focused on distilling the Truth from within the depths of the Unconscious, will He be able to slay the Dragon and the treasures of the unconscious Feminine be accessible—in the form of her strictly positive, consciousness-affirming aspect: the Maiden. The single-pointedness of Masculine power has taken a number of forms in mythology and art: the lance, the spear (of Archangel Michael), the sword held aloft, the dasher, and the arrow. My personal favorite tale of focus is from the Mahabharata.

Drona's, the great archery teacher, gave an archery test to all of the Pandavas and Kuruvas, each of whom failed to focus exclusively on their target: a decoy bird perched in a distant tree. Arjuna was saved to be tested last. As Arjuna notched his arrow and drew his bow, Drona told him to take aim at the target, but fire only on his command.

"Now tell me, Arjuna," Drona asked, "What do you see?"
"I see a bird's eye," Arjuna replied.
"What kind of bird is it?"
"I do not know; I can only see its eye."
"Then fire!"

Only Arjuna had mastered the focus required to fell the target and pass the test. The Great Mother will do much in her power to distract the Masculine from achieving this one-pointed focus, for it is this power of His that will reveal Her maidenhood, as a torch pierces the a cavern's darkness. He must not be distracted, or his light will not achieve the penetration necessary to succeed. (Of course, in the Arjuna story, he's aiming for much more than just a consciousness of his own Feminine beauty—Arjuna aimed for Truth—but that's another story. The masculine focus needed is the same in each case.)

The Positive Feminine actually may long for her own distillation, but the Masculine must ultimately carry it out. Her inner longing is the "cry of the Maiden" imprisoned in the cavern of the unconscious. "I was a hidden treasure who wished to be known," is the old sufi saying.

Until this event takes place in a Western male's psyche, he is, somewhere, juvenile. He cleaves to the Mother archetype for he cannot separate himself from the Matrix of his origins in the Great Mother. He cannot reach his guiding inner feminine to form a relationship of balance and equality with her, for she will always, ultimately, devour him if he gets too close. She—his inner feminine—is still half Dragon! Lasting intimacy with a real woman, therefore, is difficult (if not impossible) for him with a woman�except in a mother-son relationship. He may be drawn to the wisdom or beauty in a woman, but then he will be afraid of her real power�and either submit to it submissively or try to silence or destroy her with the unbridled masculine violence we are all too familiar with. He may take his violence toward the Negative Mother out on a real woman because he will easily project his own inner Feminine onto her, and behave in a juvenile way that will encourage a real woman to play the role of the Negative Mother out on the stage of their relationship. He can then blame her for wanting to "swallow" him or "cling" to him or "possess" him, and slay her in one way or another, or just flee as so many males do today.

Many of us have played this game on one side of the court or the other. It's no fun. The archetypes locked in the eternal war of opposites seldom care for individual humans, and when we get possessed by them, we lose our humanity and become monsters.

So they're all there within us, as Susan elucidated: Dragon, Maiden, and Knight.

---
*The many-headed serpent of the Negative Mother represented in the Greek myths by Medusa, I might add, is not as dangerous to the Eastern mind as it is to the Western psyche. Sesa-naga, the serpent of the myriad heads upon whom Vishnu/Narayana reclines, is a symbol of the paradox of unity-and-diversity: how all of us can possess a unique perspective and, at the same time, be One. This understanding is "common sense" in many Eastern cultures—a simple fact for most Indian Hindus, for example. The Western psyche's sense of individuality, on the other hand, has evolved in a counterpoise to this knowledge: the cold, detached, scientific mind is a byproduct of slaying the Great Mother by seeing her only as a reflection in a mirror. The simple fact for the Westerner is that he or she is an individual, independent and detached from the life-flux somehow. From the Hindu perspective, this is a ludicrous idea, as is, for many Western scientists, the notion that we are all One.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RavenHeart on 2006-05-29 17:23 ]</font>
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Post by Guest » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Raphael

I don't think there is such a thing as coincidence. For the past few months I have been noticing a series of events in my life that just interlink.

I wanted to ask you whether the serpent and the puma are separate entities in those depictions?

I have been delving a bit into the significance of the serpent and find that in most cultures, the serpent represents a form of evil, except in the Chinese culture where they are sacred.

Maybe the serpent coiled around the Puma represents the everpresence of evil wanting to annex the might of the majestic Puma?
Perhaps it is the coming together of the two halves of a single spiritual entity? Like Ying Yang. Without one, the other cannot survive.
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Post by Raphael » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

On 2006-04-10 08:38, Shamin wrote:
Raphael

I don't think there is such a thing as coincidence. For the past few months I have been noticing a series of events in my life that just interlink.
It's beautiful, once you tune into it, your life goes from being a series of linear events marking time into seeing a bigger picture where you see yourself weaving into the matrix of events from past and present with maybe a little projection into the future.
<IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">
I wanted to ask you whether the serpent and the puma are separate entities in those depictions?
Yes they are, the serpent, puma and condor are all separate entities but they are depicted together as in a totem pole hierarchy or 2 are doing battle, i.e. condor attacking puma or snake and the puma and serpent doing battle always respecting the hierarchal positions however.

I have been delving a bit into the significance of the serpent and find that in most cultures, the serpent represents a form of evil, except in the Chinese culture where they are sacred.
Delve more and I suggest you will find the serpent plays more than just an 'evil' role.
Buddha himself was protected by a cobra wrapping itself around him and the hood of the cobra even providing protection for the Buddha's head...
Maybe the serpent coiled around the Puma represents the ever presence of evil wanting to annex the might of the majestic Puma?
Remember the snake/serpent often represents simply our 'lower nature', no arms or legs, our bellies close to our Mother Earth slithering about. Our heartbeats in tune.
The snake as depicted in Eden lead us to material desire through the eating and embracing the knowledge of our sciences which desire to control the 'matter'ial comforts born of our Mother Earth.

The snake represents man being bound in matter, which is simply 'lightwave' forms. Wave = Snake

The Serpent doing battle with the Puma would represent man and his connections to his lower nature, the earth not sky and the desires that inherently go with living in a ‘matter’ial world.
The basic need to consume life to live.
Perhaps it is the coming together of the two halves of a single spiritual entity? Like Ying Yang. Without one, the other cannot survive.
It is definitely exactly that Shamin, those two polarities that make up the whole.

Hydrogen the number #1 element is the only element that is a hermaphrodite.
It is the only element that does not have a neutron, only 1 proton and 1 electron.
The positive/male and negative/female representations is the elemental basis of ALL creation as hydrogen is what is primarily consumed by the Sun to create the other elements…

So yes I would agree we are all formed from ‘stardust’ and profoundly we still need to be nourished and maintained by a star…

Namaste

Raphael


_________________
ENERGY = GOD ... Share Him is the Message...
God can be neither created nor destroyed; he can only be transformed into other forms of God. However there is a penalty for committing sin, for transforming God and it is called Entropy.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Raphael on 2006-04-10 10:19 ]</font>
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