dragons (and maidens and knights)

Who was Joseph Campbell? What is a myth? What does "Follow Your Bliss" mean? If you are new to the work of Joseph Campbell, this forum is a good place to start.

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Post by A J » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

On 2005-09-01 10:27, cliff w wrote:

I'll give you a simple example. I see a beautiful woman walking down the street. She "catches" my attention. I feel some lust for her. It's pure dragon energy. I've ended up meeting women like this and it's funny. Most of the time as soon as they open their mouth the fantasy pops! And it's gone. IMO the reason is that they are reflecting an ideal of a type of perfection.
In other words, this ideal maiden has no voice. I am reminded of an Arthurian tale I have yet to see referred to in this forum, the tale of “Sir Gawain and the Loathly Lady.” This is the tale where Arthur sends Gawain out to find an answer to the question, “What do all women want?” Gawain comes across an incredibly ugly woman who says she will give him the answer if he agrees to marry her. He reluctantly agrees. She tells him that what all women want is to have their own way. After he gives this response to Arthur, he returns to the loathly lady and marries her. After the wedding, in the privacy of their chamber, the lady becomes incredibly beautiful, and gives Gawain a choice. She can be beautiful in public and ugly when they are alone, or the reverse, being beautiful only when they are alone. Gawain wisely remembers the answer she gave him, and tells her to choose for herself. She tells him that he has wisely given the correct response, and for his reward, she will be beautiful all the time.

IMO, for a woman to get what she wants, she must have a voice. The ultimate Dragon scenario is incest, when a female child is sexually abused by a male parent. She is told never to speak of it. Her Silence is the most extreme example of losing a voice. It is referred to in Belenky, et al’s Women’s Ways of Knowing, which has been referred to several times in these forums.

Someone in this thread said that the serpent was initially made evil in the Garden of Eden, but you really must go back farther, to the demise of the Goddess. The serpent was honored and considered holy in the Goddess culture. Perhaps the Native American tale is connected in a similar way. In part of your response to Vissi, and her elaboration on this story, you referred to an “unspoken secret.” I’m not certain what you meant. Should a woman’s awakening be kept secret? Once again, is the woman’s Voice being silenced?

You haven't said much about the surprise ending to your dream: “we were betrayed by a frog.” Your dream has many fairy-tale elements in it, so your robot-frog could well be a prince (knight) in disguise who must be kissed by a princess (maiden) for the evil spell to be broken. I cannot help but wonder, who needs whom more, the maiden or the dragon. Maybe if you give the Loathly Lady what she wants, the freedom to “speak in her own voice,” you will do your part in restoring balance to the Universe.

(We crones are people, too.)
AJ


"Sacred space and sacred time and something joyous to do is all we need. Almost anything then becomes a continuous and increasing joy."

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Post by nandu » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Cliff,

I think the whole problem is the "possession" part. The dragon wants the maiden very much but he can't really enjoy a fruitful relationship. I've found this true with sex-obsessed men who move from one seduction to another. Maybe, to obtain something, you have to learn to let go: when you realise that love is not about possession, the inner knight kills the inner dragon.

AJ,

That story is "Beauty and the Beast" in reverse! And it is true: beauty is not skin deep. But you take a certain amount of time to realise it. That's why I think there's a dragon phase during teenage.

By the way, my inner dragon is not fully dead (heh,heh!)...

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Post by Robert G. » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

What happens if the maiden simply gets up and walks away?

That would be recovery from addiction <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> In a myth, I guess she might kiss the dragon, accepting it as it is, and have it turn into her perfect mate. A happy ending for all (except the knight!)
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Post by nandu » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

In that case, the dragon becomes the knight. Duality becomes singularity: Tat Tvam Asi (Thou Art That).

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Post by Siddha » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

A J,

Thank you for your thoughtful post!
In other words, this ideal maiden has no voice.
I think this is an interpretation of what I said that while quite possible isn’t what I meant. I’m a very visual person. “The eyes are the scouts of the heart” type thing. Yet it’s only a 2D image. When I meet a person, they are 3D. My 3D “ideal” is much more complex than the 2D image and thus the chance for dissonance is much greater. “…she opens her mouth” can be taken to meant that women should not speak at all. Again not what I meant. Silencing women IMO would be highly undesirable since I am most attracted to women who can think and speak for themselves.
I am reminded of an Arthurian tale I have yet to see referred to in this forum, the tale of “Sir Gawain and the Loathly Lady.” This is the tale where Arthur sends Gawain out to find an answer to the question, “What do all women want?” Gawain comes across an incredibly ugly woman who says she will give him the answer if he agrees to marry her. He reluctantly agrees. She tells him that what all women want is to have their own way. After he gives this response to Arthur, he returns to the loathly lady and marries her. After the wedding, in the privacy of their chamber, the lady becomes incredibly beautiful, and gives Gawain a choice. She can be beautiful in public and ugly when they are alone, or the reverse, being beautiful only when they are alone. Gawain wisely remembers the answer she gave him, and tells her to choose for herself. She tells him that he has wisely given the correct response, and for his reward, she will be beautiful all the time.
Interesting tale. I find the “having it in their own way” somewhat unsatisfactory. At the time the story was popular I’m guessing that women didn’t have their way in many regards (choosing a husband, voting etc.) so the moral of the story makes sense in that context. Brought into modern society I find it harder to apply. In some circles, women don’t have a voice, granted. It’s just not common for me. Most of my coaching clients are female, half or more of my best college students are female plus the women in my life are all vocal and strong women.
IMO, for a woman to get what she wants, she must have a voice. The ultimate Dragon scenario is incest, when a female child is sexually abused by a male parent. She is told never to speak of it. Her Silence is the most extreme example of losing a voice. It is referred to in Belenky, et al’s Women’s Ways of Knowing, which has been referred to several times in these forums.
I think that anytime we get remotely close to these type of extremes, this conversation becomes 100% a one way conversation. Although it is a very important topic as the voice of abused female children and may I add abused male children should not be silenced, I’ve been trying to steer this specific conversation in the direction of subtlety… <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif"> Campbell once said that the modern incarnation of a maiden is walking down 37th street or something along those lines. What this all about?
Someone in this thread said that the serpent was initially made evil in the Garden of Eden, but you really must go back farther, to the demise of the Goddess. The serpent was honored and considered holy in the Goddess culture. Perhaps the Native American tale is connected in a similar way. In part of your response to Vissi, and her elaboration on this story, you referred to an “unspoken secret.” I’m not certain what you meant. Should a woman’s awakening be kept secret? Once again, is the woman’s Voice being silenced?
Seing that for a living I assist men and women in “awaking” to part of their full potential and that word of mouth is probably the best form of promotion, even if I didn’t agree with you 100% for personal reasons (which I do) I would have to agree out of pure selfish reasons. I’ll have to re-read what I wrote because it certainly could not mean “keeping a woman’s (or man’s) awakening or voice a secret.” You’ll notice from my other posts that when it comes to freedom, liberty, choice I don’t distinguish between genders. IMO they are rights that each person has from birth. If I recall correctly what I was referring to was the potential for a maiden needing the dragon. Again, I’m talking symbolically and not about issues of abuse.
You haven't said much about the surprise ending to your dream: “we were betrayed by a frog.” Your dream has many fairy-tale elements in it, so your robot-frog could well be a prince (knight) in disguise who must be kissed by a princess (maiden) for the evil spell to be broken.
This is one of the most interesting interpretations I have come across. Thanks! I like the idea of the frog potentially being a prince that needed to be awakened by feminine energy. That’s very good! The frog I should clarify was just a frog. Not a robot-frog. I thought of him in terms of the amphibious nature of frogs. A couple of yeas ago I went on a vision-quest and spent the whole time with a crow. Crows, like frogs are thought of being able to travel between the material and spiritual worlds. So I was thinking of the frog in terms of the work I do helping people connect myth to life.
I cannot help but wonder, who needs whom more, the maiden or the dragon. Maybe if you give the Loathly Lady what she wants, the freedom to “speak in her own voice,” you will do your part in restoring balance to the Universe.
I think that the dragon needing/desiring the maiden is a given. The maiden needing the dragon is interesting. Giving the Lady the freedom to speak her own voice is again a given. In none of my examples do I desire the maiden not to speak he own voice. I think a more interesting question, looking at this issue at a subtle level is how are maidens and thus dragons freely giving up their right to speak their own voice.. One form of “speaking ones voice” could be “following ones bliss.” Assuming that most men and women aren’t living their bliss, then why have they given it up?
(We crones are people, too.)
I’ve been thinking about crones since this idea/symbol came up last, I believe potentially in another conversation. The implied assumption I believe is that the crone isn’t attractive. As in the example you cite. I have a female guide in my life who serves “the crone function” in my life. She is one of the most stunningly beautiful women I have ever met. In part not because of special “technique” but because of the self-worth she possesses. Your story is interesting also because it seems to completely devalue physical beauty at one level and then rewards the knight with it in the end. In a way changing nothing. Also, if you think about it the ugly woman in your example in a way asks Gawain to prostitute himself. She says “marry me not out of passion or love” but because “I can give you something you seek.” And what is it? Knowledge, something intellectual and material but not of the heart. He marries her out of duty. So what is the real life translation of this myth?

Gawain is a seeker, he engages an feminine aspect within himself that he thinks is ugly. Maybe it is being emotional, grief, sentimentality, weak from a purely masculine-conquering perspective. Yet he learns that giving into emotions, giving them their say can lead to a really beautiful experience of life! Funny because one of the most frequent pieces of advice I give to people is that they fully embrace their emotions in the moment. Very few actually do it.


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Post by nandu » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

This thread is getting highly intellectual, so I'll recount a dream I had two days before and leave the analysis to all of you.

I am walking with my family on a bridge over a small pond. Suddenly we see a small infant on a lotus leaf, floating in the stream. It's a deformed girl, and as my wife takes her into her arms, she changes into a normal child and starts crying. My son starts playing with her.

Immediately an animal from the pond also joins us: it's part fish, part alligator and most importantly, it has got wings like those of a dragon. My uncle (who is a chronic bachelor and cannot stand the sight of animals) starts playing with it. He continues doing this, even when we make fun of him. He says: "This is my pet."

Then I woke up...

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Post by Siddha » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Is it a happy cry or a sad cry? Can you add some emotional context to it? Also it helps a great deal if you took each element and told us your interpretation/perception of it. It's your dream, so it's really your interpretation of the symbols that counts, otherwise, we're just making assumptions based on our own biases... <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">

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Post by A J » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

On 2005-10-04 15:23, cliff w wrote:

I think this is an interpretation of what I said that while quite possible isn’t what I meant. I’m a very visual person. “The eyes are the scouts of the heart” type thing. Yet it’s only a 2D image. When I meet a person, they are 3D. My 3D “ideal” is much more complex than the 2D image and thus the chance for dissonance is much greater. “…she opens her mouth” can be taken to meant that women should not speak at all. Again not what I meant. Silencing women IMO would be highly undesirable since I am most attracted to women who can think and speak for themselves.



What an interesting response! I speak of a woman's "voice," and you tell me you are a "visual person" Clearly we are coming from different places and bringing different perspectives to this conversation. Interesting, too, that visual metaphors are often considered masculine, whereas speech and hearing are more feminine.

Interesting tale. I find the “having it in their own way” somewhat unsatisfactory. At the time the story was popular I’m guessing that women didn’t have their way in many regards (choosing a husband, voting etc.) so the moral of the story makes sense in that context. Brought into modern society I find it harder to apply. In some circles, women don’t have a voice, granted. It’s just not common for me. Most of my coaching clients are female, half or more of my best college students are female plus the women in my life are all vocal and strong women.



I'm not sure your situation is all that common for other people. While women have made great strides during the last quarter of a century or so, in most places there is still a sizeable imbalance of power between men and women. "Having her own way," "having a voice," and "having the means to make her own choices, control her own ldestiny, and follow her own dreams," are IMO synonomous.
I think that anytime we get remotely close to these type of extremes, this conversation becomes 100% a one way conversation. Although it is a very important topic as the voice of abused female children and may I add abused male children should not be silenced, I’ve been trying to steer this specific conversation in the direction of subtlety… <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif"> Campbell once said that the modern incarnation of a maiden is walking down 37th street or something along those lines. What this all about?


You are absolutely right. Incest is an extreme form of dragon behavior, and is not what this forum is about. So, who brought up Woody Allen?
(That quote you were referring to goes like this: "The latest incarnation of Oedipus, the continued romance of Beauty and the Beast, stand this afternoon on the corner of Fifty-second Street and Fifth Avenue, waiting for the traffic light to change.")
Seing that for a living I assist men and women in “awaking” to part of their full potential and that word of mouth is probably the best form of promotion, even if I didn’t agree with you 100% for personal reasons (which I do) I would have to agree out of pure selfish reasons. I’ll have to re-read what I wrote because it certainly could not mean “keeping a woman’s (or man’s) awakening or voice a secret.” You’ll notice from my other posts that when it comes to freedom, liberty, choice I don’t distinguish between genders. IMO they are rights that each person has from birth. If I recall correctly what I was referring to was the potential for a maiden needing the dragon. Again, I’m talking symbolically and not about issues of abuse.


Does the maiden need the dragon? You have pointed out that they are part of a Triad: maiden, dragon, and hero. IMO, this triad is a patriarchal image. What the maiden needs is for the hero to rescue her from the dragon.
I once read somewhere that the basic difference between Greek drama and modern melodrama was that the Greek hero (protagonist) always confronted the antagonist directly.(OK, they must not have encountered Electra and Orestes, but that's another forum.) Modern drama involves a triangle, with a "victim" who must be "rescued" from a "persecutor." Dragon behavior is specifically directed at maidens. Maidens are helpless victims in need of rescuers. As you wisely pointed out, "...what she wants is a noble knight; instead she ended up with a rich dragon." Maybe that maiden who winks at you is hoping you're the real thing.
This is one of the most interesting interpretations I have come across. Thanks! I like the idea of the frog potentially being a prince that needed to be awakened by feminine energy. That’s very good! The frog I should clarify was just a frog. Not a robot-frog. I thought of him in terms of the amphibious nature of frogs. A couple of yeas ago I went on a vision-quest and spent the whole time with a crow. Crows, like frogs are thought of being able to travel between the material and spiritual worlds. So I was thinking of the frog in terms of the work I do helping people connect myth to life.


Your choice of work is a clear indication that you are one of the good guys, Cliff. That has never been in question. There is a great deal of salt in my words, too, if you listen carefully. Maybe that's why my tongue keeps getting caught in my cheek. I'm pleased you like my interpretation.

I think that the dragon needing/desiring the maiden is a given. The maiden needing the dragon is interesting. Giving the Lady the freedom to speak her own voice is again a given. In none of my examples do I desire the maiden not to speak he own voice. I think a more interesting question, looking at this issue at a subtle level is how are maidens and thus dragons freely giving up their right to speak their own voice.. One form of “speaking ones voice” could be “following ones bliss.” Assuming that most men and women aren’t living their bliss, then why have they given it up?


If we are all to speak in our own voices and to follow our bliss, we need to be able to confront the dragon directly, and that requires a situation where masculine and feminine qualities are honored in equal balance.
I’ve been thinking about crones since this idea/symbol came up last, I believe potentially in another conversation. The implied assumption I believe is that the crone isn’t attractive. As in the example you cite. I have a female guide in my life who serves “the crone function” in my life. She is one of the most stunningly beautiful women I have ever met. In part not because of special “technique” but because of the self-worth she possesses. Your story is interesting also because it seems to completely devalue physical beauty at one level and then rewards the knight with it in the end. In a way changing nothing. Also, if you think about it the ugly woman in your example in a way asks Gawain to prostitute himself. She says “marry me not out of passion or love” but because “I can give you something you seek.” And what is it? Knowledge, something intellectual and material but not of the heart. He marries her out of duty. So what is the real life translation of this myth?

Gawain is a seeker, he engages an feminine aspect within himself that he thinks is ugly. Maybe it is being emotional, grief, sentimentality, weak from a purely masculine-conquering perspective. Yet he learns that giving into emotions, giving them their say can lead to a really beautiful experience of life! Funny because one of the most frequent pieces of advice I give to people is that they fully embrace their emotions in the moment. Very few actually do it.


Personally, I too think crones are often quite attractive, even beautiful. If more people were like us, there would be no need for botox and anorexia. The crone in my story was beautiful, too. Gawain just had to shift his perspective to see it. She was also manipulative. She used what powers she had - beauty and knowledge - to get a knight to protect her from dragons. In a patriarchal society, that is all the recourse she has. Real Life Translation? When women are treated like objects to possess, they just might turn loathly in order to survive.

I like your translation better!


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Post by nandu » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Cliff,

I can't interpret the dream as a whole. I've never tried to do so. In fact, most of my dreams are disturbing to me so I don't think about them much. (Maybe a strange position for a JCF associate to take!)

Anyway, one or two things struck me forcefully, some of a mundane nature and some with mythical impact. First, the girl: the way she came floating on the lotus leaf was like the popular image of Krishna, floating on a Banyan leaf atop the flood waters. She cried like children cry: without sorrow or joy, just the lusty animal howl. (I have wanted a daughter for a long time but my wife does not agree: maybe this image also relates to that).

I was really intrigued by the mingling of the dragon image with my uncle. He is a chronic bachelor who'd run away if a maiden so much as batted an eye at him! And he hates animals. This was what surprised me (in the dream) when he took a dragon as a pet, of all things!

Anyway, I don't analyse much nowadays: the images are in my mind. Perhaps someday, some more illumination will come.

I was just interested in getting your responses.

Nandu.
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Post by Siddha » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Hi AJ,
What an interesting response! I speak of a woman's "voice," and you tell me you are a "visual person" Clearly we are coming from different places and bringing different perspectives to this conversation. Interesting, too, that visual metaphors are often considered masculine, whereas speech and hearing are more feminine.
Hmm… I never thought of “being visual” as either masculine or feminine. You’re probably right… It seems to me that women do adorn themselves more than men, and in my humble “male” opinion they do so more for other women then men. Frankly, I don’t think most men have the sensibility to appreciate the subtle differences between one shoe style or another.

I'm not sure your situation is all that common for other people. While women have made great strides during the last quarter of a century or so, in most places there is still a sizeable imbalance of power between men and women.
I agree with you here, however, I’m not really speaking for all people. Not that “speak for other’s” as an advocate or champion is bad. It’s just not where I have been exploring this question. Looking at it from a “women rights at global level” is certainly a valuable and valid contribution to this specific topic, I’m just asking that my comments not be read in that context.
"Having her own way," "having a voice," and "having the means to make her own choices, control her own ldestiny, and follow her own dreams," are IMO synonomous.
I’m in a relatively new relationship (3 years) and we have a 15 month old baby. I would say that 95% of the disagreements in our relationship is because I want something my way and she wants it her way. We agree that there is a third option, sacrificing to the relationship as Campbell put it. So you can see how “having her own way” from my perspective equals “me not having it my way”… <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif"> In terms of having a voice, making her own choices, controlling her destiny I can’t agree with you any more. All women are born with the right to have it their way! And yes, patriarchal systems strip it away. However, I don’t think partriacal systems are created by men soley. Women are responsible (IMO) for 50% or their creation. When a woman says “I’ll give up my voice in exchange of you looking after me” then it is a partnership. I personally don’t believe that men alone could ever create a system that could control women, without help from women.
You are absolutely right. Incest is an extreme form of dragon behavior, and is not what this forum is about. So, who brought up Woody Allen?
I didn’t say that this forum isn’t about examining incest or sexual abuse. This forum is open to virtually any conversation. Although I have to think that I would be concerned over disclosure in such a public vehicle. I was just stating I was trying to steer this specific conversation away from “extreme dragon behaviour.” You are more than welcome to start a new conversation on extreme dragon behaviour, incest or sexual abuse.

Now you really caught me with your Woody Allen comment. Yes I brought him up. Not so much because I wanted to discuss him but more because he seemed to be a possible modern day incarnation of the combination of the energies we where talking about at the time. The extreme shyness and overly analytical combined with literally acting out and living extreme dragon behaviour (seducing and then marrying his step daughter)
(That quote you were referring to goes like this: "The latest incarnation of Oedipus, the continued romance of Beauty and the Beast, stand this afternoon on the corner of Fifty-second Street and Fifth Avenue, waiting for the traffic light to change.")
Wow you’re sharp! Thanks.
Does the maiden need the dragon? You have pointed out that they are part of a Triad: maiden, dragon, and hero. IMO, this triad is a patriarchal image. What the maiden needs is for the hero to rescue her from the dragon.
The triad is more of a hypothesis then anything else. It also is somewhat unsatisfactory because 3 seems solid but not in balance. The guide, the crone, the vast nothingness… I’m sure there is a fourth element. Regardless I see this drama being played out within each man and woman.
I once read somewhere that the basic difference between Greek drama and modern melodrama was that the Greek hero (protagonist) always confronted the antagonist directly.(OK, they must not have encountered Electra and Orestes, but that's another forum.) Modern drama involves a triangle, with a "victim" who must be "rescued" from a "persecutor." Dragon behavior is specifically directed at maidens. Maidens are helpless victims in need of rescuers. As you wisely pointed out, "...what she wants is a noble knight; instead she ended up with a rich dragon." Maybe that maiden who winks at you is hoping you're the real thing.
No doubt, but if 95% of her energy is going into her appearance and 5% is going into her emotional, spiritual and intellectual development, then I doubt she’ll find me attractive… <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif"> Interesting yes. A friend? Why not. But in the end she’ll end up with a dragon. Could be loving dragon, but a dragon none the less. Is that bad? Well Beauty and the Beast would indicate that sometimes the dragon captures the maiden so that he may be rescued by her. To do this he has to “respect her own voice.”
Your choice of work is a clear indication that you are one of the good guys, Cliff. That has never been in question. There is a great deal of salt in my words, too, if you listen carefully. Maybe that's why my tongue keeps getting caught in my cheek. I'm pleased you like my interpretation.
Thank you for the wonderful compliment. I’ve been blessed with great teachers, mostly women in my case so far. I’ve also had some great male teachers. Although I never met him in person, Campbell has to be one of the most influential ones! <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">
If we are all to speak in our own voices and to follow our bliss, we need to be able to confront the dragon directly, and that requires a situation where masculine and feminine qualities are honored in equal balance.
Nice worded!!! I couldn’t agree any more.
Personally, I too think crones are often quite attractive, even beautiful. If more people were like us, there would be no need for botox and anorexia. The crone in my story was beautiful, too. Gawain just had to shift his perspective to see it. She was also manipulative. She used what powers she had - beauty and knowledge - to get a knight to protect her from dragons. In a patriarchal society, that is all the recourse she has. Real Life Translation? When women are treated like objects to possess, they just might turn loathly in order to survive.
Yes, exactly. Would seem to apply to teens also! <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">
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Post by Siddha » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Nandu,

I think that some of your symbolism is somewhat foreign to me. I think that your uncle is the part that interests me the most at this point. He's playing with the dragon and defends it. Does he nurture it? I'm wondering is it a baby dragon or full grown?
Seems to me that both the dragon and the baby are deformed. Maybe they both need to be "transformed." Hmmm... deformed, transformed. So your wife transforms the baby girl, but, the man only plays and defends his “possession.” I thought it was your wife that cried. Ignore my cry question. Maybe this dream indicates that your feminine side is well integrated but that you still have some stubborn attachment to your un-evolved dragon energy? Of course this is a blind stab in the dark. I’d like to hear AJ’s interpretation as she seems to posses a fair bit of wisdom in terms of symbols. Other’s are welcome to join in also!

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Post by nandu » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Cliff,

I always enjoy hearing others analysing my experience, as I am "too near" to it to analyse it.

The entry of my uncle into the dream surprised me too, because he never visits my dreamworld as a rule! However, he is an interesting character: tall and handsome, good at all sports, plays the flute, and a painter. In fact, he could be a Don Juan or a "Parfit Gentil Knight" if he chose to. But that part of his psyche seems undeveloped: he runs away from the opposite sex as a rule! What the Englishmen call a "confirmed bachelor".

However, he was the main influence in my life during adolescence. In many ways, I am his exact opposite. I was a plain and plump youngster, lacking totally in physical intelligence, and I longed to be like him. But I had a lot of dragon energy and...ahem...we disagreed on these matters!

So when my uncle is shown with a dragon, is my subconscious playing a subtle joke on me?

Infant Krishna floating on the flood waters after the flood at the end of the world, is a famous vision of a sage. It is on a banyan leaf (a few inches in length) and Krishna is sucking his big toe like a serpent biting its tail. It symbolises the rebirth of the world, I think. The girl came floating just like that.

And yes, it was a baby dragon.

Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu
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Post by Siddha » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Nandu,

I would guess that the image of your uncle is representative of the lingering socializing effect he has had within you. It seems like the feminine energy within you is flowing naturally and that your masculine energy is stuck in the ideal that your uncle represented. Intellectually you might dismiss him now, but, his teachings may still be active within your unconscious and thus energizing dragon like desires within you. It interesting that both the baby and the dragon are deformed. It's like they are made up of fragments that haven't been integrated.

That's my stab at it. Comments?

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Post by Raphael » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

I have not read all of the responses here but I am garnering and absorbing some wonderful info regarding the dragon.

He (JC)argued that it is not science that has diminished human beings or divroced us from divinity. On the contrary,the new discoveries of science "rejoin us to the ancients" by enabling us to recognize in this whole universe "a reflection magnified of our own most inward nature; so that we are indeed its ears, its eyes, its thinking, and its speech..."
-Bill Moyers, Power of the Myth

So with Joe's approval and blessing I shall present what science says about Snakes/Serpents, Birds and Dragons.

For those of you who have studied physics this may resonate.

Light can travel essentially one of two ways.
As a Wave or as a Particle. (quanta or packet of particles)

Serpent = Wave
Bird = Particle

Serpent + Bird = Dragon

A Wave is also 'Bound' energy and Particles are 'Free' energy.

Dragons occur at the transition point or the axis mundi, it is the tirtha, the still point, the 4th chakra.
This would be where I think you would encounter dragons.
It is the point where we slay the dragon or the dragon defeats us.
The point also where mind over matter occurs.
Where quantum intersects with the relative field.
We are trying to achieve inner thermodynamic equilibrium. Peace.
That is what slaying the dragon represents, this is what I feel.

I will post a link here about the ayhausca plant and florescent dragons.

Namaste

Raphael





_________________
ENERGY = GOD
Thus the primordial Law of Thermodynamics says...
God can be neither created or destroyed, he can only be transformed into other forms of God. However there is a penalty for making vain graven images and it is called Entropy.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Raphael on 2005-10-06 21:29 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Raphael on 2005-10-07 21:22 ]</font>
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Post by nandu » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Cliff,

I am still uncomfortable with my internal dragon. You are true when you say that I haven't integrated it fully into my psyche. I still feel guilty about my dragon fantasies (and I still have them)!

Anyway, I am expecting more episodes of this dream.

Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu
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