On 2005-10-04 15:23, cliff w wrote:
I think this is an interpretation of what I said that while quite possible isn’t what I meant. I’m a very visual person. “The eyes are the scouts of the heart” type thing. Yet it’s only a 2D image. When I meet a person, they are 3D. My 3D “ideal” is much more complex than the 2D image and thus the chance for dissonance is much greater. “…she opens her mouth” can be taken to meant that women should not speak at all. Again not what I meant. Silencing women IMO would be highly undesirable since I am most attracted to women who can think and speak for themselves.
What an interesting response! I speak of a woman's "voice," and you tell me you are a "visual person" Clearly we are coming from different places and bringing different perspectives to this conversation. Interesting, too, that visual metaphors are often considered masculine, whereas speech and hearing are more feminine.
Interesting tale. I find the “having it in their own way” somewhat unsatisfactory. At the time the story was popular I’m guessing that women didn’t have their way in many regards (choosing a husband, voting etc.) so the moral of the story makes sense in that context. Brought into modern society I find it harder to apply. In some circles, women don’t have a voice, granted. It’s just not common for me. Most of my coaching clients are female, half or more of my best college students are female plus the women in my life are all vocal and strong women.
I'm not sure your situation is all that common for other people. While women have made great strides during the last quarter of a century or so, in most places there is still a sizeable imbalance of power between men and women. "Having her own way," "having a voice," and "having the means to make her own choices, control her own ldestiny, and follow her own dreams," are IMO synonomous.
I think that anytime we get remotely close to these type of extremes, this conversation becomes 100% a one way conversation. Although it is a very important topic as the voice of abused female children and may I add abused male children should not be silenced, I’ve been trying to steer this specific conversation in the direction of subtlety… <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif"> Campbell once said that the modern incarnation of a maiden is walking down 37th street or something along those lines. What this all about?
You are absolutely right. Incest is an extreme form of dragon behavior, and is not what this forum is about. So, who brought up Woody Allen?
(That quote you were referring to goes like this: "The latest incarnation of Oedipus, the continued romance of Beauty and the Beast, stand this afternoon on the corner of Fifty-second Street and Fifth Avenue, waiting for the traffic light to change.")
Seing that for a living I assist men and women in “awaking” to part of their full potential and that word of mouth is probably the best form of promotion, even if I didn’t agree with you 100% for personal reasons (which I do) I would have to agree out of pure selfish reasons. I’ll have to re-read what I wrote because it certainly could not mean “keeping a woman’s (or man’s) awakening or voice a secret.” You’ll notice from my other posts that when it comes to freedom, liberty, choice I don’t distinguish between genders. IMO they are rights that each person has from birth. If I recall correctly what I was referring to was the potential for a maiden needing the dragon. Again, I’m talking symbolically and not about issues of abuse.
Does the maiden need the dragon? You have pointed out that they are part of a Triad: maiden, dragon, and hero. IMO, this triad is a patriarchal image. What the maiden needs is for the hero to rescue her from the dragon.
I once read somewhere that the basic difference between Greek drama and modern melodrama was that the Greek hero (protagonist) always confronted the antagonist directly.(OK, they must not have encountered Electra and Orestes, but that's another forum.) Modern drama involves a triangle, with a "victim" who must be "rescued" from a "persecutor." Dragon behavior is specifically directed at maidens. Maidens are helpless victims in need of rescuers. As you wisely pointed out, "...what she wants is a noble knight; instead she ended up with a rich dragon." Maybe that maiden who winks at you is hoping you're the real thing.
This is one of the most interesting interpretations I have come across. Thanks! I like the idea of the frog potentially being a prince that needed to be awakened by feminine energy. That’s very good! The frog I should clarify was just a frog. Not a robot-frog. I thought of him in terms of the amphibious nature of frogs. A couple of yeas ago I went on a vision-quest and spent the whole time with a crow. Crows, like frogs are thought of being able to travel between the material and spiritual worlds. So I was thinking of the frog in terms of the work I do helping people connect myth to life.
Your choice of work is a clear indication that you are one of the good guys, Cliff. That has never been in question. There is a great deal of salt in my words, too, if you listen carefully. Maybe that's why my tongue keeps getting caught in my cheek. I'm pleased you like my interpretation.
I think that the dragon needing/desiring the maiden is a given. The maiden needing the dragon is interesting. Giving the Lady the freedom to speak her own voice is again a given. In none of my examples do I desire the maiden not to speak he own voice. I think a more interesting question, looking at this issue at a subtle level is how are maidens and thus dragons freely giving up their right to speak their own voice.. One form of “speaking ones voice” could be “following ones bliss.” Assuming that most men and women aren’t living their bliss, then why have they given it up?
If we are all to speak in our own voices and to follow our bliss, we need to be able to confront the dragon directly, and that requires a situation where masculine and feminine qualities are honored in equal balance.
I’ve been thinking about crones since this idea/symbol came up last, I believe potentially in another conversation. The implied assumption I believe is that the crone isn’t attractive. As in the example you cite. I have a female guide in my life who serves “the crone function” in my life. She is one of the most stunningly beautiful women I have ever met. In part not because of special “technique” but because of the self-worth she possesses. Your story is interesting also because it seems to completely devalue physical beauty at one level and then rewards the knight with it in the end. In a way changing nothing. Also, if you think about it the ugly woman in your example in a way asks Gawain to prostitute himself. She says “marry me not out of passion or love” but because “I can give you something you seek.” And what is it? Knowledge, something intellectual and material but not of the heart. He marries her out of duty. So what is the real life translation of this myth?
Gawain is a seeker, he engages an feminine aspect within himself that he thinks is ugly. Maybe it is being emotional, grief, sentimentality, weak from a purely masculine-conquering perspective. Yet he learns that giving into emotions, giving them their say can lead to a really beautiful experience of life! Funny because one of the most frequent pieces of advice I give to people is that they fully embrace their emotions in the moment. Very few actually do it.
Personally, I too think crones are often quite attractive, even beautiful. If more people were like us, there would be no need for botox and anorexia. The crone in my story was beautiful, too. Gawain just had to shift his perspective to see it. She was also manipulative. She used what powers she had - beauty and knowledge - to get a knight to protect her from dragons. In a patriarchal society, that is all the recourse she has. Real Life Translation? When women are treated like objects to possess, they just might turn loathly in order to survive.
I like your translation better!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: A J on 2005-10-05 14:22 ]</font>