dragons (and maidens and knights)

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Post by Siddha » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Nandu,

I found your frog dream interesting because there is a potential link to my earlier dream I posted.

Pauline,

What got the conversation started was a dream I had involving dragons. At first we explored it from a shadow-male side. Then I became interested in the shadow-female side of the maiden. The one who sits in a tower waiting for an external warrior to rescue her.

I quite like your take on dragons as being the fire within. Fearless!
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Post by Guest » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

On 2005-08-30 13:13, nandu wrote:
Cliff,

I honestly don't know, because I have a lot of dragon energy in me, and it used to disturb me quite a lot. I was very timid with girls as a youngster, but all the time a dragon was seething within. I used to envy my friends who could mingle easily with girls, be the life of the party while I was in a corner, ogling the pretty ones and letting my dragon fantasies run riot.

Now I've become more suave and polished, but the dragon's still there. I accept the fact, and is more comfortable with it. But I confess I still don't know how to transcend or use it. I just take it as one part of myself.

Nandu.
On my way to get more info about maidens and knight in this topic, I came across this post and it rung a bell within me.

I have been in similar situations. I was very timid towards boys, and afraid to mingle with people in general. Stil am afraid to do that when my boyfriend isn't around.
Had a lot of fantasies how things could be, probably exaggerated.

My theory is as follows. The dragon (which represent your true self) roars because it isn't free. Your and mine ego is holding it back. Maybe because of past experiences, or a low self esteem or something else. Except for the reason created by yourself there is no reason they wouldn't like you.

For knights killing dragons. Perhaps a knight kills a certain aspect of a dragon. Like greed. Before greed, there is admiration. You just admire something, the qualities it has.
sometimes people get obsessed with having it. Greed. But then there's always something lost. Some of the beauty. It's never enough.
A woman is not only beautiful because of her looks. The most beautiful women sometimes have imperfect looks, their beauty comes from a glow from inside. A few pounds more or less doesn't change that.
I have a stable realation. That doesn't mean I am not allowed to watch other men, or that my boyfriend isn't allowed to watch other woman. I do enjoy watching beautiful men and woman. I also do enjoy watching beautiful things like paintings or old trees. so does my boyfriend. But this has nothing to do with possesion, or greed.
Abduction/capturing of girls has more to do with possesion.

Just some thoughts.

Paulien
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Post by Guest » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

I do know Pinola Estes.
I searched through the catalogus of my local library, and as turns out I have read almost the entire book.
The dutch translation of the title is "De ontembare vrouw" (the untamable woman)
therefore I didn't recognize the title.

Paulien

On 2005-10-31 10:55, A J wrote:

La Loba (Wolf Woman), the old one, the One Who Knows, is within us. She thrives in the deepest soul-psyche of women, the ancient and vital Wild Woman. She describes her home as that place in time where the spirit of women and the spirit of wolf meet —the place where her mind and her instincts mingle, where a woman's deep life funds her mundane life. It is the point where the I and the Thou kiss, the place where women run with the wolves.
from Women Who Run with Wolves by Clarissa Pinkola Estes PhD, 1992

The idea is that too many modern women have become separated from their "wolf force." Intuition or acting from our "gut-feelings" is another way of putting it. It is a book about getting in touch with the old feminine nature, the way it was before it was redefined by patriarchy.

AJ



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Post by nandu » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Paulien,

Yes, part of the dragon energy (for me at least) is about possession. I have mentioned it earlier in this thread, but have you read the novel "The Collector" by John Fowles? It is about a sociophobic guy who collects butterflies. One day he decides to become adventurous, so kidnaps a pretty girl with whom he has become infatuated. He brings her to a lonely country house, and keeps her absolute prisoner in the basement.

The girl tries to escape by offering him herself: but it turns out he cannot have sex with her. To him, she is just like those butterflies, collected and kept under glass for him to look upon. The mere possession gives him enjoyment.

It is a dark tale, darker because the girl dies in the end: but it is a fine modern day fable of the dragon and the maiden.

To me, ogling girls, putting up pictures of movie actresses on the walls, are all part of dragon behaviour. Of course, all boys do pass through that stage, especially in a country like India where boys and girls still don't mingle that freely.

I have recently come to think of the need for possessing something as part of this behaviour. It is "grasping", holding on to something. The first thing you do while start on the journey of self-realisation is learn to let go. At least, if that's not possible, recognise your grasping behaviour.

That's why I said, there's still a dragon within. But I think he's changing. Who knows? One day he may become "a parfit gentil knight".

Nandu.
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Post by Guest » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

I do agree with the fact that the maiden is locking herself in a tower.
Fear is an aspect of it. Expectations of other people also. This for both men and women.

I thought about greed/possesion. The thread about addiction as dragon behaviour is also very interesting. Is it dragon behaviour because I am kind of addicted to my current state of mind. It also sounds as an aspect of the maiden archetype.
Can it be both at the same time?
I have been addicted to lovestories, romans described as trash-fiction. It is lessening since I am seriously asking myself what I am looking for by reading those. I don't know exactly what, but there is a need. Perhaps a need to know that there will be a happy ending for me, despite some difficulties.
I dream about a man who makes enough money for both of us. It gives me a feeling of safety, room to discover what I want. It will be no problem when thing go wrong job-wise.
But it is an illusion to find safety with other people. Is it dragon behaviour, or maiden behaviour.

Paulien


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Post by Guest » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

i dreamt the following a few years ago.

in the beginning there were only dragons. each time a vulcano errupted a dragon was born. When the dragon died, so did the vulcano. They were with many and ruled sky and earth.
Then man came and dragons watched them and started to interact with them. Man worshipped dragons as gods. They worshipped dragons in their natural form, and also in human form.
I was a dragon in this dream. I was one of the dragons mankind revered as a goddess. It was interesting for a while, but while I got older and older, the people died of old age. I choose a few people, they drank from my blood. It changed them, gave them immortality. They became my priests. These Chosen spoke for me when I slept. And as time passed I slept longer each time. I lost my interest in mankind.
Then one of my priests betrayed me. He thought I would not know. He grew a hate for dragons amongs his people, and they killed my Chosen, before hunting down my brothers and sisters. I knew my chosen were dead because of the blood we shared. I started to awake from my sleep, and heard and felt the anger of my surviving brothers and sisters. I flew through the sky, over the city, breathing flames. I was angered. We dragons did nothing to deserve this. I killed many with my fire. It was a day they would never cease to forget, since a river of eternal fire split the city in two halves.
Wounded I arrived in my lair, and somehow escaped the slaughter of my brothers and sisters. In the years that followed so-called dragonhunters killed all of them. Time passed and I slept.
One day I awakened. In human form I went to the black city. The people lived at night, they where afraid of the sun, and the fire it represented. I felt at loss walking through the city. I stood with a group of beggars when some guards came. I don't recall exactly what happenend, but they saw some scales on my skin. (a certain wound, received earlier on, did heal, but in human form that place would have scales) I decided it was time to run. I ended up in a dead alley, the guards still chasing me. I turned round. "silly boys' I said while my claws ripped them apiece. I did not want to kill them first, but in order to life there was no choice.
My chosen knew and sent me a letter to make amends between us.
After that, I decided to bring a visit to my last chosen. The betrayer, again, as it turned out. At first he didn't notice I was there. When he noticed he was afraid. some talkin followed, he alerted the guards. I knocked him unconsious, and jumped through the window. I got back to my lair in the vulcano. It was not yet my time.But anger awoke. Next day I felt a presence coming. I waited outside for my chosen to come.
When he came closer I revealed my true power to him. I appeared for him, women, nor dragon. He betrayed me twice, it was clear he should die. and so I did. He died astonished, since no other dragon had revealed their true power before.
I took flight one last time, My fire destroyed parts of the human city, befory I fell down because of their weapons.
I dove into the river of fire and felt the souls from my brothers and sister. I knew it was good.
Next thing I awake somewhere else, in human form, but I am still a dragon. Things got a bit fuzzy from that point, but there was a castle build on water, and I jumped from the tower into the water.

This was a very strong drem. I still remember it, while most of my dreams don't last longer as the night.

What do you say about this?

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Post by Siddha » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Pauline,
My theory is as follows. The dragon (which represent your true self) roars because it isn't free. Your and mine ego is holding it back. Maybe because of past experiences, or a low self esteem or something else. Except for the reason created by yourself there is no reason they wouldn't like you.
Wow, this hit me like a ton of bricks!!! Bricks full of insight and wisdom. I don't get it's full implication yet but there is definitely something there I have to meditate on. Excellent!

Your dream is fascinating and will require some time, which I don't have tonight... I'll be back!
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Post by nandu » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Hello Cliff and Paulien!

Paulien,

I am still trying to digest your dream.

The most intriguing thing about it is the way the dragon is linked to your feminine energy. In the traditional western myth, the dragon is a stunted form of male energy, like the maiden, which is a stunted form of female energy. The way your energy is spewing out in the dream reminded me of Kali (the fierce Indian goddess) on a spree of destruction.

I always equate the snake with the male principle in myths. You can include the dragon also into the genus of serpent, albeit a more powerful one. You seem to be somehow internalising this male principle in your feminity. Interesting!

India has a lot of mythical snakes, but very few myths about dragons. But the faces of dragons are carved over the doors of all temples: it is called "Vyali Mukha" (Dragon Face). And not only here, you'll find carvings of dragons everywhere in temples. They are supposed to be the guardians of gods, but more I do not know.

In India, we get small images of deities of different temples to put in our prayer rooms. All these images have a dragon head on top. It used to scare the hell out of me, when I was a kid.

Here's a photo of a dragon face from Konark, Orissa.

http://www.cs.utah.edu/~mbinu/images/or ... age17.html

Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu
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Post by Guest » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Hi Nandu, Cliff,

First I have to say, Nandu, the photo is beautiful. It awakens a desire to go there.

And then I have to say that I don't understand the dream completely myself. I just know there is truth in it for me, not necessarily for others.

The dragon is female, because I am female. If I were a male, the dragon would have been also.

I have difficulties regarding the dragon as male and the maiden as female. I think more like the gender of an archetype is not important, it is important what an archetype tries to tell you. When you listen, balance will come, and automatically balance one's male and female sides. Not everyone does response to the smae archetype, because everyone is different an has different issues to be solved.

I remember reading in this topic a story about Saint Joris or Siegfried and the dragon. It's also possible I read it in Power of Myth.
In that story to regain the girl, the knight has to conquer the dragon. After the dragons dead, the knight drinks the dragons blood and receives a gift of knowing. Knowledge wich was lost.
Death is not the end, death is transformation. I think it possible that the dragon is not collecting a treasure or girls because of greed, but he guards them. The knight has to come and fight to prove worthy of the treasure. Because it is a fact that something wich is retrieved with diffuculty has more value as something retrieved easily.

If I am correct most Western dragon stories date from medieval times when church has a firm grip on society. so maybe, the western drgaon was firts more similar to the eastern dragon, but due to church influence the picture changed.

I am still pondering about the connection between dragons and snakes. A reaction on that will follow.

Paulien


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Post by A J » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

On 2005-11-04 05:54, Wolfsfury wrote:
If I am correct most Western dragon stories date from medieval times when church has a firm grip on society. so maybe, the western drgaon was firts more similar to the eastern dragon, but due to church influence the picture changed.
That's interesting. George, the patron saint of England was a dragonslayer. What other examples might there be?
AJ

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Post by nandu » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Just remembered this:

In Carl Sagan's "The Dragons of Eden", he equated dragons to Dinosaurs.

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Post by Siddha » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Pauline,

I’m saving your dream for when I have a larger chunk of time. I strongly agree with this
I have difficulties regarding the dragon as male and the maiden as female. I think more like the gender of an archetype is not important, it is important what an archetype tries to tell you.

I also think that the gender is significant in relationship to you and your gender, because it is your dream. It seems to speak to a strong sense of female empowerment.

This is a great statement:
I think it possible that the dragon is not collecting a treasure or girls because of greed, but he guards them. The knight has to come and fight to prove worthy of the treasure. Because it is a fact that something wich is retrieved with diffuculty has more value as something retrieved easily.
I think that there is a flow to our universe and life (nothing new here…). An of-shoot of this idea then is that behaviours, emotions, etc. have a “shelf-life.” For example, I am guarding a little maiden, not only am I but so is my partner. Our maiden is 16 months old! I think it is a healthy privilege for parents to protect this little miracle that delights us every day. Of course we could be short-sighted and want to protect her from all suffering, but that is impossible on many levels. Further, we believe it is important for her to experiment, learn through trial and error, etc. So while we try our best to protect her from future suffering we also try our best to give her enough freedom to learn from mistakes.

When she becomes older and starts dating then I will protect her at a different level. My wish for her is that we can raise her to have a strong sense of self and esteem. I hope that she will have the wisdom to test her suitors to see if they have a “noble heart” but also with enough compassion not to cross the line over to becoming a “savage woman.”

Back to my original point. I think that potentially there is a time and place for dragon behaviour. The problems begin to emerge when we get stuck in it.

I’ve been thinking about your idea that dragon energy is bliss that has been constrained by the ego, I would think as a protective measure. Now only the tenderness and beauty of a maiden can liberate the dragon from needing his/her scales. We haven’t talked much about the scales on dragons but I would tend to think that each one of them covers an injury/vulnerability. Ultimately it is impossible for parents to give unconditional love all the time. Children grow up with wounds. In some form we cover them up to protect ourselves. Maidens live in castles made up of “stone walls” and dragons cover themselves with “stone like scales.”

Very interesting, your adding a wonderful new dimension to this conversation.
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Post by Guest » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Nandu:
I read about snakes and dragons in mythology and their connection. The Chinese dragons looks like a snake for the most parts.
I see their connection, but not yet the full implications.

The snake, like the dragon, has a mixed image.
In Christian myth the snake is evil, because he seduced Eva to eat the apple from the tree.
In other mythologies snakes have a more positive image because of their natural habit to grow new skins and loose the old.

What would we see if we merge the symbology of the snake and the dragon.

I suddenly remember something about the living ships series from Robin Hobb. There were huge sea-snakes. And these snakes were actually in the first stage of becoming a dragon.

Concerning snakes and dragons perhaps their combined symbology has to do with changes going to the next stage of one development.

I note down your book suggestion and I will read it.

@Cliff
You said something about dragon behaviour and getting stuck in it being not good.

From my own experience I learned that ignoring/neglecting feelings caused the troubles. Ignoring something in me makes it stronger, because of the effort I put in ignoring it. Sooner or later I will have to face it.

I am getting sidetracked.
I feel often there's a general view of how a person, be it a man or a woman, should be.
I used to shout in silence "I am not sweet!"
Sometimes I feel outside is more important as inside. I should wear this, I should behave like that. Perhaps the dragon is to be compared with Baba Yaga, neither dark nor light, but approched with care.
I feel like something is missing in society.
I feel a need to ritual, a passing.
I feel peoples dark sides must be hidden, a little layer of civilization and no one notices its there. so mostly the dragon gets buried too. it's not right. it just isn't.

so I got a question.
For me our so called civilization is a lot less civil as some people tend to think. I think some tribes in africa, or perhaps the aboriginals are more civilized as western society.
We are so 'civil' people are attacked for being a muslim, the getto's are growing, and the people with more money get more money and the other people get less.
How much of the behaviour to be seen in western society is possible dragon behaviour.
Or is none?


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Post by nandu » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Paulien,

Your posts are always bubbling over with ideas, so it is difficult digest one post in one sitting. Sometimes it reminds me of a snake in furious motion (joking, of course)!

Anyway, the moment you substitute "Serpent" for "Dragon", the field becomes wide open, as we scarcely have any culture without a serpent myth. In India, we have the famous "Ashta-Nagas" or the eight snakes. The preserver of the universe, Lord Vishnu, sleeps on one. Krishna, an incarnation of Vishnu, dances on the heads of another serpent to subdue it. These snakes have multiple heads. I could go on and on.

I'll be brief for now, however, and just mention one common theme: that of the snake rising from beneath the waters. The image of the sea with the serpent in it seem to be imprinted in the human psyche. It has spilled over into the realm of legend, with the still reported sightings of the Loch Ness monster.

Nandu.
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Post by Siddha » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

@Cliff
You said something about dragon behaviour and getting stuck in it being not good.

I hope that this is not what I am remembered for… <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif"> I think that the “western” dragon reflects is “dark or shadow quality while eastern dragons reflect a light or balanced (light and dark) quality. Globally I think the world is stuck, primarily due to the success of western culture and thus western dragons. Then again when Campbell went to India in his 50 he was quite disappointed to discover the lack of ‘hinduism” practiced by Hindus. So I tend to think that humans have been confusing symbols for their literal meaning for as long as we have had symbols. I can see the first caveman/woman drawing a deer on a cave wall and a slew of others trying to take a literal bite out of the rock wall… <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">
so I got a question.
For me our so called civilization is a lot less civil as some people tend to think. I think some tribes in africa, or perhaps the aboriginals are more civilized as western society.
We are so 'civil' people are attacked for being a muslim, the getto's are growing, and the people with more money get more money and the other people get less.
How much of the behaviour to be seen in western society is possible dragon behaviour.
Or is none?
I think that our society is evolving and actually is becoming more “civilized” it is a gradual process and if you look at a given moment in time it might seem disheartening but in the end, like Gandhi said “truth and love always overcome the worst of tyrants.” When you talk about tribes in africa I have to question don’t they practice canabalism? Don’t they have a history of bloody warfare? Isn’t it still happening? Same with natives, some of their historical practices where quite inhumane.

The fact that Bush went into Iraq for the reasons he did and in the manner he did seems to me most uncivilized. But the fact that he is being questioned (even if it is several years after the fact) and that he may yet be held accountable is a sign of civility.

The key to me is to get people following their bliss. This planet is a symphony of 6 billion plus humans, if everyone was following their bliss, all we’d hear is music!
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