Ken Wilber

Who was Joseph Campbell? What is a myth? What does "Follow Your Bliss" mean? If you are new to the work of Joseph Campbell, this forum is a good place to start.

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Raphael
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Post by Raphael » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

On 2006-01-07 05:00, ritske wrote:
Ken O'Neill,
Another point. It seems probable that Wilber's understanding of Buddhism leaves something to be a desired, as you claim. Obviously, as someone whose name I've forgotten already pointed out earlier in this thread, Wilber can't have read everything - he's a generalist, and writing the sort of stuff he writes requires wide reading. As Bertrand Russell put it in the preface to his 'History of Western Philosophy':

If, however, books covering a wide field are to be written at all, it is inevitable, since we are not immortal, that those who write such books should spend less time on any one part than can be spent by a man who concentrates on a single author or a brief period.
Well boy do I resemble that remark, a jack of all trades and a master of none.
I am about to dispel the myth that acquired knowledge, a phd or a masters is the road to salvation.
I would however suggst it reflects the degree of your indocrination. It is not difficult to line up experts on either side of an issue.
Many people actually believe you can purchase an epiphany.
Let us discuss, therefore, Wilber's GENERAL argument: the perennial philosophy. Do you think such a thing exists? In other words, can we make such general statements as Wilber makes, and come to conclude that mystics of all times and places had - roughly - the same kind of experience?

Here is how Wilber himself describes the essence of the perennial philosophy:

"One, Spirit exists, and Two, Spirit is found within. Three, most of us don't realize this Spirit within, however, because we are living in a world of sin, separation and duality— that is, we are living in a fallen or illusory state. Four, there is a way out of this fallen state of sin and illusion, there is a Path to our liberation. Five, if we follow this Path to its conclusion, the result is a Rebirth or Enlightenment, a direct experience of Spirit within, a Supreme Liberation, which—Six—marks the end of sin and suffering, and which—Seven— issues in social action of mercy and compassion on behalf of all sentient beings

quoted in: 'Ken Wilber, thought as passion', by Frank Visser, p. 50
I have not read any of Wilbur’s work yet why does my ‘Creation Template’ fit very nicely over Ken Wilbur’s Work, like an overhead transparency.
Note: the Creation Template I worked out only correlates to Wilburs’ first four steps because I had not completed counting past four. Five was the next logical number I was to study.

Let us compare how my cosmogony, the blending of symbols, myth, math, science and religion compares with Wilbur’s conclusions shall we?

I arrived at my conclusions using a similar approach Wilbur apparently did…covering a wide field of inquiry, drawing from many different sources.

Here is what I wrote on another thread and I am talking in reference to the Ten Commandments.
The first four steps or Commandmnets are a progression through the dimensions. 1D>2D>3D>4D

1 > 1D is one particle ... O (The Creator is mentioned) Wilbur … One, Spirit exists
2 > 2D is two particles joined by a Wave (Duality, a splitting is implied. Look for twins or the mention of two things occurring) Wilbur … Two, Spirit is found within
3 > 3D is three particles forming a Triangle ... SPACE is created (look for a ‘place’ taking shape where the story will take form) Wilbur … Three, most of us don't realize this Spirit within, however, because we are living in a world of sin, separation and duality— that is, we are living in a fallen or illusory state.
4 > 4D is four particles forming a square or tetrahedron ... SPACETIME is created (look for a reference to TIME, it is also the ‘crucial’ step that deals with redemption or the appearance of a 'Messiah', the Christ consciousness. A cleansing occurs. Wilbur … Four, there is a way out of this fallen state of sin and illusion, there is a Path to our liberation.
And then in that very same thread I mention another interesting discovery worthy of a Dan Brown novel or perhaps even initiating the same controversy as finding Yitzhak Rabin’s assassination mentioned in the Bible Code.

In theology the first Four Commandments were inscribed on the 1st Tablet and they represent Man's relationship to God.
The remaining six Commandments are on the 2nd Tablet and they represent Man's relationship to his fellow Man.

So essentially ‘The Creation Template’ is the first tablet of stone, is it not?
Who do we have to thank for the SPACETIME concept I ask?
Einstein translated means essentially ‘One Stone’.

Thus the first Tablet of Stone representing the Creation Template has been used the world over. It is embodied by Pythagoras’ Tetractys, his concept of the entire Universe being represented by those 4 numbers. Pythagoras in the cave also dwelled, meditated on the concept of the microcosm and macrocosm.

So Einstein's SPACETIME formula E = Mcc is inscribed on ‘One Stone’

The following is a quote from Painted Owl on another thread. Remember there are no conincidences..."Einstein said he thought in images,and only later tried to communicate his ideas in words for others.He would sit in a relaxed state,holding a small stone in his hand,so when he reached the edge of dropping off to sleep the stone would drop from his hand and wake him.I do not know if this is relative to the topic at hand or not."
Moses I might add also had a habit of dropping stones.

Go here for the entire thread:

http://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic. ... 2&forum=27

Since writing that thread I have made more discoveries.

In continuing with my interpretation of the Ten Commandments energetically, I believe
Commandment 5 is Thermodynamics … all three laws of thermodynamics are beautifully encapsulated quite simply.

Honor thy father (the cosmic sun) and thy mother (the elemental earth) so that thy days may be long upon the earth.

And Commandments 6-10 at this point I would suggest interpreting using Quantum Gravity.
In other words, when a Zen monk has a satori experience, is he experiencing the same thing as a Hindu ascetic or a Meister Eckehart, as Wilber claims? (I'm not saying here that Wilber claims that all mystic experiences are the same - he does make distinctions. I don't want to get bogged down in the technicalities of Wilber's framework, though, to keep this discussion clear).
I would suggest the ‘Chosen’ amongst us have a different experience.
However I must believe that most of us experience pretty much the same thing.
Now I present to you a concept for a graven image society, a concept whose time has come …’marketing different designer religions based on them offering a different experience’…guaranteed or your money back!
Another point: I feel we should make distinctions between Wilber's earlier books and his later books. Wilber's first book- The spectrum of consciousness- just isn't very good (at least not in my opinion). He wrote it when he was very young, and we could say that the man has almost had to grow up in public. This is reflected by the fact that wilber himself now no longer endorses the views in the earlier books - he has moved on, although not everyone realises this. Do you feel Wilber's recent books also contain factual errors, or is it just the earlier books you take issue with?
Same thing could be said about Campbell or even me.
It is not unlike the chaotic activity of quantum particles eventually manifested into an order, so must the thoughts of the mind be arranged.

Namaste

Raphael


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Raphael on 2006-01-12 18:04 ]</font>
Raphael
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Post by Raphael » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Hello Ken I was doing some more surfing the other day. Riding the waves that make up the web...
Close your eyes visualize this metaphor.
A web or matrix of interconnectivity.
Like a flat piece of grid paper...do you think the invention of this paper was a coincidence?
Now pick any spot on the edge of the paper and start to trace a line. It will not be long before you reach an intersection...do you turn left or right?
Continue on and again we come to another intersection, now which way do we turn?
If you keep turning in the same direction it becomes cyclical and the direction is either clockwise or counter clockwise.
Isn't it?
If we keep to the middle path and do not make any turns we get to the other side of the grid paper very quickly.
Do we not?

And how do the Laws of Thermodynamics play a role in getting to the other side?
(read and re-read my signature below)
Is it a race to reach the other side or is the intent to fill in the graph paper with circular graphic designs of sacred geometry?
Was the Spirograph a coincidence or a reflection?
Thinking of Drunvalo and what his research implies.
I feel the intent is too perhaps fill in the graph paper...joins the dots the Creator has laid out for us, sit back and be in awe. And I think we are to do this in harmony with all the galaxies. Fill in the graph paper...not unlike the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.
Where did that inspiration come from?
(to be continued)

namaste

Raphael

________________
ENERGY = GOD ... Share Him is the Message...
God can be neither created nor destroyed; he can only be transformed into other forms of God. However there is a penalty for committing sin, for transforming God and it is called Entropy.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Raphael on 2006-01-11 09:19 ]</font>
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Post by Evinnra » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am




On 2005-12-28 22:49, Faolan wrote:


Wilber says that personality (as proximate ego) is transcended but included ...


He ranks human development along with types of belief systems and societal structures,

One thing about Wilber that mystifies me is how he can claim to embrace the legitimacy of experience on all levels, state that each level is sufficient unto itself and each perfectly “true” in its own context, all the while denying that he is in any way denigrating some spiritual experiences as somehow “lower”.

Faolan,

Much of what you have written here reflects my own understanding of Wilber, and what 'mystifies' you about him - claiming any of the systems as being either lower or higher - had distracted me too for quite some time. However, I tend to interpret him - for my own benefit - that he may have implied different directions/level of existence in qualitative manner, which provided position rather than 'authority' over other systems. (yeah, here comes the big boo-boo, how does a value statement avoid authoritative position in comparison with other value statements, it seems possible only without observation ... but let's leave this for now) So, before I make an even bigger fool of my self by discussing something I don't understand yet sufficiently, perhaps this article in New Scientist 7. January, 2006 pp.25-26 will be of some assistance, or at least some extra food for thought.

'A Leap into Hyperspace.'

"... can hyperdrive really get off the ground?
The answer to that question hinges on the work of a little know German physicist. Burkhard Heim began to explore the hyperdrive propulsion concept in the 1950s as a spin-off from his attempts to heal the biggest divide in physics: the rift between quantum mechanics and Einstein's general theory of relativity.
Quantum theory describes the realm of the very small - atoms, electrons and elementary particles - while general relativity deals with gravity. The two theories are immensely successful in their separate spheres. The clash arises when it comes to describing the basic structure of space. In general relativity, space-time is an active, malleable fabric. It has four dimensions - three of space and one of time - that deform when masses are placed in them. In Einstenin's formulation, the force of gravity is a result of the deformation of these dimensions. Quantum theory, on the other hand, demands that space is a fixed an passive stage, something simply there for particles to exist on. It also suggests that space itself must somehow be made up of discrete, quantum elements.
In the early l950s, Heim began to rewrite the equations of general relativity in a quantum framework. He drew on Einstein's idea that the gravitational force emerges from the dimensions of space and time but suggested that all fundamental forces, including electromagnetism, might emerge from a new, different set of dimension.
... In Heim's six-dimensional world, the forces of gravity and electromagnetism are coupled together. Even in our familiar four-dimensional world, we can see a link between the two forces through the behaviour of fundamental particles such as the electron.(p.25)
... Heim waited for more money to come in, the company's director, Ludwig Bolkow, encouraged him to develop his theory further. Heim took his advice and one of the results was a theorem that led to a series of formulae for calculating the masses of the fundamental particles - something conventional theories have conspicuously failed to achieve. He outlined this work in l977 in the Max Planck Institute's journal 'Zeitschrift fur Naturforschung' , his only peer-reviewed paper. In an abstruse way that few physicists even claim to understand, the formulae works out a particle's mass starting from physical characteristics, such as its charge and angular momentum.
Yet the theorem has proved surprisingly powerful. The standard model of physics, which is generally accepted as the best available theory of elementary particles, is incapable of predicting a particle's mass. Even the accepted means of estimating mass theoretically, known as lattice quantum chromodynamics, only gets to between 1 and 10 per cent of the experimental values." (p.26)



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Post by Brian Welling » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Wilber's ranking of developmental levels does not bother me; it thrills me. This is because Wilber is leading the charge to find a way out of the stalemate that postmodernism got academia into (whereby no criticism of culture can be attempted without rousing an instantaneous accusation of cultural imperialism and even racism). His system attempts to rank cultural and individual values and propensities on a hierarchy (a holarchy, as he calls it) while still being sensitive to cultural and individual diversity and the great insights and correctives against Eurocentrism, patriarchy and classism that postmodernism has provided.

As Wilber notes, relativism (of which postmodernism is an extreme form) is, in a way, intrinsically hypocritical. It proposes that all views are equally valid, which is a logical contradiction, for if it were true, then even the view that some views are garbage is a valid view.

Wilber proposes that there are many independent streams of development, but that each of them consists of different hierarchically arranged levels. He shares his view that development is hierarchically arranged with Jean Piaget, one of the most highly respected experimental psychologists in history. Of course Piaget was only concerned with one stream of development (cognitive development) and Wilber is concerned with many, although to him they are all aspects of one thing: consciousness.

Another difference is that unlike Piaget, Wilber has a teleological model of development. To him, consciousness is going somewhere - it is not evolving blindly and without purpose. It is headed from the realm of the physical (and lifeless), on up through the biological, to the level of mind, then to that of soul, and ultimately spirit. The hierarchy follows this invariable order. That is to say that each level is a step that cannot be skipped because each is a necessary preparation for the next. Or to put it differently, each successive level integrates the previous one so that there is no biosphere without a physiosphere and no noosphere (realm of mind) without both of the first two and so on and so on.

Each of these main levels or waves has many sublevels travelling, as I said, down many different streams (moral development, cognitive development, ego development, emotional development, etc.). The various levels of each stream correspond to each other (for example, Piaget's preoperational level of cognitive development might correspond with Kohlberg's preconventional level of moral development, both of which are examples of consciousness operating at the level of the biosphere in Wilber's overarching scheme).

Wilber's system undoubtably has bugs in it, and it has yet to be empirically tested on a grand scale (although it should be noted that the hierarchies that make up many of Wilber's streams of development HAVE been tested rigourously by the various theorists Wilber synthesizes - i.e Piaget, Kohlberg, etc.), but it is an ingenious, inspiring start (at least for me).

The only thing that really bugs me about Wilber is that he is a bit brash and cocky (although, at least good humoured about it!).
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Post by Raphael » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

This following post also perhaps explains why Joseph Campbell may have been considered an anti-Semite. It certainly explains why I have come to the realization that I probably am an anti-Semite. But I do ask the opportunity to provide an explaination for the stance, the position I have chosen to take.
However at the end of the post you may appreciate the new definition I would like to propose for the word anti-Semite.

I now have an update, new information has come to light...it is what reveals itself when we take the esoteric, tarot referenced, Kabbalistic* Tetragrammaton and place it over the 4 Step Creation Template which is my thesis combined with Wilbur’s first four levels.
(*what is the correct spelling of Kabbala, Cabbala, Qabala?)

Again I remind you I have not read any of Wilbur’s work yet I ask why does my ‘Creation Template’ fit very nicely over Ken Wilbur’s Work, like an overhead transparency?

Note: the Creation Template I worked out only correlates to Wilbur’s first four steps or levels because I had not completed counting past four. Five was the next logical number I was to study. You see my attempts are directed toward trying to simplify the message. I believe the creative process should be able to be explained to a child counting the fingers of both hands, the process of creation of the Universe and everything contained within represented by the numbers 1-10. There was a time you would simply use fingers, symbols and story-telling as we sat around the dancing fire.
Einstein, who pursued TOE the Theory of Everything believed the equation to describe everything would be a simple one. I have followed this man's inspiration. It is the KISS principle and it works great with kids.

Let us compare how my cosmogony, the blending of symbols, myth, math, science and religion compares with Wilbur’s conclusions shall we?

I arrived at my conclusions using a similar approach as Wilbur apparently did…covering a wide field of inquiry, drawing from many different sources.

I shall simply place the template over The Tetragrammaton which represents the magical four-fold or 4D process of creation corresponding to different levels, worlds, physical manifestations and the formation of creative possibilities…etc.

Now here is what I wrote on another thread and I am talking in specific reference to the first 4 of the Ten Commandments.
I have placed as a comparative Ken Wilbur’s defined levels and they are in bold face letters.

The first four steps or Commandments are simply a progression through the dimensions. 1D>2D>3D>4D (where D = dimension)

1 > 1D is one particle, Zeus ... O (The Creator is mentioned) Wilbur … One, Spirit exists
2 > 2D is two particles joined by a Wave, Hera is the Greek Goddess (Duality, a splitting is implied. Look for twins or the mention of two things occurring) Wilbur … Two, Spirit is found within
3 > 3D is three particles forming a Triangle ... Hades within Greek myth is introduced and a SPACE is created (look for a ‘place’ taking shape where the story will take form) Wilbur … Three, most of us don't realize this Spirit within, however, because we are living in a world of sin, separation and duality— that is, we are living in a fallen or illusory state.
4 > 4D is four particles forming a square or tetrahedron ... and here also Persephone representing the aspect of time using seasons is introduced. SPACETIME is created (look for a reference to TIME, it is also the ‘crucial’ step that deals with redemption or the appearance of a 'Messiah', the Christ consciousness. A cleansing occurs. Wilbur … Four, there is a way out of this fallen state of sin and illusion, there is a Path to our liberation.
Now when you place the Creation Template over the four-fold Tetragrammaton an interesting difference is noted.
And this insight actually helps explain how the Kabbalists view the creation, the world and their role within it.

Please understand the profound insight I am about to share.

-The Tetragrammaton is the four-lettered name of the most high.
-Yod, Heh, Vav, Heh are the 4 Hebrew letters (This is essentially Yahweh)
-In the tarot these Hebrew letters are represented by the 4 suits of ritual magick.
-Yod, Heh, Vav, Heh are respectively represented by wands, cups, swords and pentacles.
-The Hebrew alphabet is known as the flame alphabet because every letter is a variation of the letter Yod which is associated with fire. Yod also means open hand. The letter itself represents a ‘spark’.
-Fire resides in the South and this is where Yod represented by the ‘waving of the magic’ Wand begins, sparks or initiates the four-fold process.

There is also a huge difference, which must be noted, and it is the apparent different placement of the 4 elements in accordance with the 4 cardinal directions.
So the Greeks had Water in the North and Earth in the West and the Kabbalists have placed Water in the West and Earth in the North. We have an apparent difference of opinion.

Please note it really helps to draw two circles to help visualize the symbolism and within each circle place a diamond.
On each corner of each diamond/square place the four elements according to the Greek alchemists and according to the modern day Kabbalist.

Now join the dots according to the standard operating procedure according to the corresponding ‘magic’.
Here is where I noticed the difference from the Greek alchemists.

In the Greek esoterics Air emanates from the East represented by Zeus, his powers rule over both Hades in the South who is in command of Fire or Zeus uses the cooling effects using Water and the seasons of change represented by Persephone in the North and together these two forces of light and dark determines the manifestation of the Creation which is Earth which is Hera or Demeter, she is situated in the West opposing Zeus.
This form of alchemy actually reflects the four-fold process but it can be shown that the manifestation of the earth, the sculpting of the clay is a process that can be approached from either a northern or southern perspective…its philosophy is in line with the concept of the two fold path or the cyclical aspects to the creation.
Interestingly the circular movements around the circle also correspond to the two directions that can be indicated by the two directions a swastika can swirl. And when both mirror images of the angular swastika are placed on top of each other...it forms a square!
Using either path results in a diamond or completed square being formed.
This symbolizes that the Creator is the initiating force emanating form the East.

Let us compare the Kabbalistic beliefs in regards to magic.
Within the philosophy of the Tetragrammaton Yod is the First step in the four-fold process. And we are told Yod resides in the south with Fire.
Being a ‘flame alphabet’ is this surprising?
Does this also represent the mythical gift of fire also given to man?

Now we continue with step 2 Heh which is Water and Cups in the West … step 3 is Vav which is Air and Swords in the East … and finally all steps culminating in the manifestation of step 4 Heh which is Earth, Pentacles situated in the North.
Follow the dots along the shape of the square or diamond within the circle.
It has a beginning and an end, starting with Fire in the South, using the effects of Water and Air to direct the manifestation of the Earth in the North.
This also represents again the linear path of the Judaeo-Christians theology.
It represents the beginning taking place in the south, Genesis and an end culminating in the north…Armageddon.
Did you trace the four step creation process known as the Tetragrammaton through the 4 directions?
S > W > E > N ?

What symbol do you end up with?
Yup it resembles the letter Z … and it does not complete the diamond apparently.
A wonderful symbol for Zion perhaps?
This symbolism confirms humanities attempts at directing the fate of the Creation using the magic of fire.

It confirms what I have been saying in all of my threads…mankind was given the gift of fire and Prometheus was punished because the gift of fire allowed man to tinker with the thermodynamic equilibrium of the Earth. Only the gods represented by the elements had that power.
Fire I have contended all throughout my threads is the gift that allowed Mankind’s pride and ego to rise above his God-given limitations and with his sciences he has been able to play the role of Wizard, the 'Matter Alchemist' using the naturally occurring and the conversion of matter to energy Thermodynamics to alter the 'shape' of the Earth, of the Creation. Who would want to do this...want this power and influence?

That is what I believe lies at the root of the Kabbalist and mystical Judaism. It is the attempts of the intellect of man to control the Thermodynamics of the Earth…the science of heat controlling the ultimate destiny of the Earth and it's 3 Laws are the OVER-RIDING Laws of the Universe.

There is only one way the metaphorical Satan contained in scripture could control God and God's creation at the same time.
He, Satan must take control of the Energy resources using the left-brained knowledge … the sciences and math and the compliance of the flock of sheeple. (domesticated people)
Math is the universal language necessary to dissect, take apart and rearrange the Creation using the pride and ego of mankind. Is mankind's intellect playing God, or is he playing with God as he manipulates the elements into new form of visions. However it can be shown these visions, these cultures are always temporary.

I ask what will be the end result of man playing with fire?

Remember Energy = God
(See my signature below)

In theology the first Four Commandments were inscribed on the 1st Tablet and they represent Man's relationship to God.
The remaining six Commandments are on the 2nd Tablet and they represent Man's relationship to his fellow Man.

So essentially the patterns of the levels that Wilbur, the Tetragrammaton, Pythagoras Tetractys, 4Dimensional SPACETIME and the First Tablet of Stone all fit nicely within ‘The Creation Template'.
Who do we have to thank for the SPACETIME concept I ask?
Einstein translated means essentially ‘One Stone’.
This I contend is a ‘Rosetta Stone’.
By placing this template over the archetypes and metaphors represented by the number 4 within myth and religion we can thus make quantum leaps of understanding. It could only help to unify...people at their core want a unifying concept.

And yes I realize the implications of my ‘discovery’, however now realize it may also help explain why Joseph Campbell was considered an anti-Semite. He was getting too close to the truth and I believe I with Wilbur help further expose a pattern of consciousness directed by a particular ‘light’.
I am starting to define a true anti-Semite as someone who has a deep reverence, a wholistic connection to the Earth.

I ask profoundly, could a Semite be someone who displays behaviours that indicates he has placed man above nature?
As the scripture evidently has been interpreted and acknowledged and the collective free will is now on global display. The apparent choices of lifestyles indicating all is not well and everything is moving toward being chaotically out of control?
And all Semites can be represented traced back to be heirs of the patriarchal Abraham…Judaism, Christianity and Islam….and it could be argued these three religions are directing the consciousness doing the most harm to the Earth…i.e the USA only 5% of the population uses 25% of the energy resources.
Living within a balance, respecting cycles etc…. maybe Joseph Campbell was correct when he expressed that the Bible being not only a War Mythology was also harmful to the Earth, to our environment which was considered an abomination (the lower nature) along with the woman within the context of the Bible.
Is it not curious not one woman I believe contributed to the writing of the, dare I say patriarchal Bible.

Again I ask as we stare collectivity toward the horizon of nuclear Armageddon, should mankind directed by the Semites (those above nature) be playing with fire?

Namaste

p.s. Interesting footnote, the Greeks philosophically believed that man should pass onto his heirs 'the earth as unchanged as possible' or 'our children do not inherit the earth from us, we borrow the future from them'.
I ask with disdain is that the path the West is on?
_________________
ENERGY = GOD ... Share Him is the Message...
God can be neither created nor destroyed; he can only be transformed into other forms of God. However there is a penalty for committing sin, for transforming God and it is called Entropy.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Raphael on 2006-01-22 10:06 ]</font>
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Post by ritske » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Raphael,

I wanted to let you know this before, but I didn't get round to it. It's Wilber, not Wilbur. Maybe you're misspelling his name on purpose, though, in which case I apologise for the correction.

regards,

Ritske
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Post by Raphael » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am


Thanks Ritske...it is simply the thought that counts though. The thought is the same as the deed.
And that is what we will learn from quantum gravity as the metaphysical, science and religion merge.
Do you know the correct spelling of Kabbala though?
Not that I really need to know.
If I allow myself to get drawn into too much detail I lose sight of the big picture.
So it is with the expanding knowledge base of our society, continually distracting me, keeping me busy.

namaste
_________________
ENERGY = GOD ... Share Him is the Message...
God can be neither created nor destroyed; he can only be transformed into other forms of God. However there is a penalty for committing sin, for transforming God and it is called Entropy.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Raphael on 2006-01-22 11:11 ]</font>
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Post by Guest » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

After reading page 1 of this thread:
Sorry Faulan, my knowledge of Ken Wilber is limited, in spite of his media exposure. I was attracted to this discussion due to my curiosity about him, and the fact that he is criticizing Joseph Campbell. I too have had, within the boundaries of my little world, found reasons to criticize Joe...about this or that or the other. I was curious about what Ken had to say in this regard. I Googled "pre/trans fallacy," introduced by art, and found myself caught up in the same disagreeable mind state that usually accompanies Wilber's work for me, in that I find him intellectually complex, but uninteresting. Since I am no spring chicken (age 55) you have to get my attention quickly, or I'll be off doing something else. I found art's analysis honest. Thank you AL, Barry, and Oldawan for the picture and comments. Thank you cliff w for your moderation, jess for YOUR comments, nandu for your "perfect understanding" observation. Kudos to Martin_Weyers for his insight and a lesson in diplomacy. Ken O'Neill: Coming from a (hold your breath) Leary/Kesey, Alan Watts, Gurdjieff/Ouspensky, Robert S. de Ropp, Ram Dass, Maharaji (Prem Pal Rawat), Da Free John (Franklin Jones), Daniel C. Dennett, Joe Campbell, American popular culture background; I will be taking particular note of your comments on other posted topics. This is my first post ever as an associate--the new guy on the block, who moved in this week. You all are now, for me, part of my Buddha in a computer box world. And in my view, there is room enough here for everybody--inside, or even outside, the box. --Doug

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Doug Kamp

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dougkamp on 2006-02-10 20:32 ]</font>

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Post by Vissi » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Doug,

Welcome to JCF and these forums. May you enjoy your participation in the discussions and the community represented here. I look forward to reading more of your thoughts.

Peace, love, joy for all beings,
Dixie
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Post by Guest » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

First—to Vissi:

Thank you for the “shave” in the name of Occam, and for keeping The Razor sharp. Your warm, peekaboo greeting, and Joyce quote, are appreciated. I have already recommended Isabel’s Home to others for whom I have high hopes.

And now, back to our discussion:
I have done more research on Ken Wilber:
I accessed, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adi_Da_Samraj for information about his relationship with Franklin Jones (mentioned by Ken O’Neill by that name, and also by “Bubba Free John,” both on page one ), currently known as “Adi Da,” a “media mentor” (never met the man) of mine for many years during the 1980s. In the Response section of that recently updated Web page, Wilber is quoted as saying, “…I can no longer—and do no longer—recommend Da’s community for the typical spiritual aspirant, and I have asked his community to cease using my name in this regard. Nonetheless, for those individuals who realize full well the extremely risky nature of the adventure, but who feel a strong pull toward complete and total surrender of their lives to a spiritual Master, I can certainly recommend Adi Da—with all the caveats of which I have written."

With this quote, and other clarifications, I hereby upgrade my publicly stated take on Ken Wilber from “intellectually complex, but uninteresting” to “honorable, but I have already gleaned what I need through other sources.” My own experience of Adi Da was a positive one by the way, and appropriately terrifying when I turned away.

What does this have to do with the original topic of this thread, Ken’s criticism of Joe Campbell in his book, “Sex, Ecology and Spirituality?” For me, it is another step encouraging further investigation of that subject—should the opportunity arise. On the other hand, I should confess that I am in love with Joe’s material, and have been for 6 years. His ideas might be criticized for inconsistencies in relation to other systems of thought, I grant that, but overall, I find his approach highly immune. Plus, he was a damn good writer. Read his “Masks of God” series, if you’re ready for it, and be spoiled, l i t e r a r i l y, forever. Joe grabs ones imagination and won’t let go. Feel blessed if you appreciate him. (I know, I know - I’m preaching to the choir). A proper introduction, I believe, is key here.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dougkamp on 2006-02-16 12:43 ]</font>
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Post by Vissi » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Faolan, doug, all,

Faolan, I beg your indulgence for a brief trek off topic.


dougkamp wrote:
First—to Vissi:

Thank you for the “shave” in the name of Occam, and for keeping The Razor sharp. Your warm, peekaboo greeting, and Joyce quote, are appreciated. I have already recommended Isabel’s Home to others for whom I have high hopes.
doug, thank you for reading and your kindness. I am grateful for both. I can quote Joyce but does quoting constitute proper understanding? In my case, likely not. <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> All of us who frequent these conversations are guests at the Campbells' table so it seems only right to honor their hospitality by extending greetings to our fellow associates. Even in complex times like these, often the simplest things are true. You are welcome to borrow Occam's razor. I'm sure no one will mind.

Peace, love, joy for all beings,
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Post by Guest » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

It’s easy to feel overwhelmed by all this. But I think we’ve covered it pretty well here. I do have a single point I’d like to bring up however—having to do with a topic Ken O’Neill mentioned in his first posting on page 1. In it he states:

“I personally feel his [Ken Wilber’s] popularity comes from an inventive imagination along with no one filling the gaps left behind by Alan Watts and Joseph Campbell!”

Actually, I think those gaps were being filled, but not in ways generally accepted by those in the public forum. Alan’s work set the table for those of us involved in the 60s revolution so we could move forward in the direction of the spiritual life, rather than in the direction of physical confrontation, for social improvements. I learned to meditate by following his instructions on a record album put out back then. And Alan had a disdain for the run of the mill Indian guru—not as much as did Joseph Campbell...but he certainly did poke fun at them. However, before he died, he endorsed a young American guru (Columbia College and Stanford educated) steeped in Hindu tradition, by the name of Franklin Jones. On the cover of Franklin’s early life autobiography, The Knee of Listening, published in 1972, Alan states,

“It is obvious, from all sorts of subtle details, that he knows what IT’s all about…a rare being.”

In the 1995 edition of that book we have his quote once again, but also Ken Wilber’s, who says,

“My opinion is that we have, in the person of Adi Da [Franklin’s ’95 alias], a Spiritual Master and religious genius of the ultimate degree. Adi Da’s teaching is, I believe, unsurpassed by that of any other spiritual Hero, of any period, of any place, of any time, of any persuasion.”

I understand he’s changed his mind about that…so in my opinion, Franklin Jones, as Adi Da, got his point across to Ken. Back in the old days, Jones made the point time and time again—go to him, and get destroyed. He’s said it on national television on a video played on the Today Show. Jane Pauley did the report during a scandal in the early 1980s. I’m sure the message is the same today.

So Alan tried to pass the torch, and I think he did so. But with both my gurus (Prem Rawat and Franklin, whom I prefer to think of as “media mentors,” since I didn’t get a chance to know them personally), my primary concern was getting to know like-minded people. Their teachings were secondary to the practical day-to-day emotional education provided living amidst devotees. The basic idea for most of us was to get in, learn what the guru had to say, which could not be put into words, and then get out. And parts of that process can be brutal, my friends. These guys aren’t selling alibis. It’s more like Bob Dylan says in the song, “Something is happening here, but you don’t know what it is…do you Mr. Jones.”

So I think the gaps were being filled, but in a spiritual “trench warfare” fashion, rather than in the “high church” traditions of Watts or Campbell.

I’ll tell you this, had I not been through my two guru experiences, I’d not appreciate Campbell nearly as much as I do. And I think we can be deceived by the best of Joe, in his eloquent writings, and wonderful late life persona, into thinking that the spiritual life is without its slimy underbelly. --Doug


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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dougkamp on 2006-02-20 12:31 ]</font>
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Post by Faolan » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

I believe this book review will be of interest to everybody following this thread. It concerns the book, "enlightenment blues". I recommend it.

http://www.culticstudiesreview.org/csr_ ... tblues.htm
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Post by neiel » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Hi everybody,

I wrote a rather critical comment when I then deleted, not wanting to appear too 'troll'-like

but I'd like re-instate this resonance from my 'personal mythology'

with subtitles to reflect the resonances with this conversation <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">


(prelude)

we flower in different ways, but we share one essence
we all love in the same way, we all hope in the same way, we all hurt in the same way, we all overcome in the same way

(Blake & Wilbur)

our consciousness shines with the light of joy of being
which illuminates our collective unconsciousness, the world around us
'we are the joy of creation'
we can give thanks for the stones, and the sea and the air around us
as they cannot for themselves
but in some sense we ARE also they, they are part of us
we are the ones, the parts of the whole, the expressions of the whole
who are the ones who wonder at the power of the sea, the light touch of the air
who find peace in the soft cushion of the cool grasses
who find glory in the sun shining on our faces
who hear music in the sounds of the waves lapping at the shore, the stream skipping down to the sea
it is wonderful to be who we are, and it is wonderful also to know that we are all the one-song, expressing itself in love
clothed in the human form divine

(psychology, society & science)

for confusion passes, and we come to understand
that if all choices are part of the dance which we all share, then there can only be innocence
all actions of all individuals are expressing our shared will
we cannot blame, we cannot separate, but observe, and learn, and respond
knowing that our responses can only be pure, for they also reflect the whole

and when we know there is no separation, we play our part joyfully, and take our share in everything
for how could what is joined in god by separated by man? except in our fantasies
those fantasies of pain, of fear, of aggression, of insecurity
simply melt away when we let go of selfishness
when we realise that nothing happens to me alone or to you alone - always others are affected
nothing is caused by me alone or to you alone - always others are involved
and who can say which single piece of the dance was the important one!
nothing is owed to me alone, or to you alone - for all acts are acts of cocreation
nothing belongs to me alone or to you alone - for the world cannot be put in boxes
when we realise this, we take joy in our shared process, the one-song which we sing with the world
when we see this, we know that the purpose of our lives is to bring joy, to give thanks
'to savour all the gifts which those before us brought to heaven'
and to act with such wisdom that those who come after us will be glad that they loaned us their world
to prepare for them, to pass on to them

(Campbell & Elizabeth Barratt Browning)

and the ancients knew this also
that we are born as the golden sun god Apollo
to shine in glory and live life to the full
and to die, as the sun sets, as flowers wither, as water passes
to be reborn as new lives, new days, new flowers, new life
we are born as ALL the old gods and goddesses
they are roles to wear to the party of life
we can be Diana hunting in the moonlight
Zeus thundering from on high, smiling inside as he startles the younger gods
Venus making love in the warm sunlight
Pan playing pipes as he sits by the river
we can hang up all the old gods in our wardrobes, bringing them out to play
and taking them off just as easily, to be ourselves again

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: neiel on 2006-03-01 13:57 ]</font>
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