The Reluctant Suitor--the Heroine's Journey

Who was Joseph Campbell? What is a myth? What does "Follow Your Bliss" mean? If you are new to the work of Joseph Campbell, this forum is a good place to start.

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Cranky Scientist
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Post by Cranky Scientist » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Liz, first I want to say that nothing you said was objectionable.

I suggested making sure you have permission to ask probing question or make critical commentary because this is a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, international forum. Not all social groups or traditions view directness, uninvited questions, or critical analysis as virtues. Our American directness sometimes offends.

We're also largely ignorant of what's going on in the lives of our fellow associates. Maybe they just got home from a chemotherapy treatment and need some compassion and acceptance badly. Instead, they find themselves under cross-examination. We just don't know. So, it never hurts to ask permission, especially when the issue under discussion is sensitive or personal.

I think it might come under the forum guideline about being polite.


Tree Hugger

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Post by Scarlett » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Tree Hugger,

Whenever you have posted personal information, I have always found it to be inspirational! It gave me courage to post information that was personal to me.
My hope is that you feel safe once again, to share any personal stories that you see to be worthwhile.
Anybody can quote a book and discuss the theories. However, I think it is far more brave and interesting to apply these mythological themes to our own lives. And by sharing our personal stories we gain insight into the spiritual journies of others.

Didn't Joseph Campbell say when he taught females, they were always taking the subject matter and applying it to their own lives. I wonder if that is a trait of being female.

I hope that we can create an environment that allows people to share personal stories.
For all men live by truth and stand in need of expression. In love, in art, in avarice, in politics, in labor, in games, we study to utter our painful secret. The man is only half himself, the other half is his expression. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Post by Lizpete » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Dear TH-

I’ve thought a lot about your statement to Scarlett and I. I believe you have hit upon a fundamental difference between the way you and I look at the forums, and is valuable to all associates in understanding the forums. I offer my opinion, and please note that it is only my opinion:

The forums and threads are for the purpose of discussion. They are public. I venture to post and expect comment, speculation, questions and responses. Discussions are framed in threads with a button at the bottom, which continually asks if I’d like to post my reply.

I do appreciate it when someone gives me additional information regarding their post and do my best to respect their wishes. If someone told me in a topic post not to comment I could understand that. If someone wrote that in the midst of discussion, and their post had some bearing on the discussion I could not.

In posting I have no idea who will reply or what perspective they will bring. The public forums have 4000+ members and are open to anyone willing to give an email address. Do I expect courtesy here? I would like it, but no I don’t. In every group I’ve joined I’ve found varying levels of articulateness, different levels of maturity even differing levels of politeness.

In the real world, I take some time to get to know individuals with whom I believe that I can be friends. I am too sensitive to let what is truly personal to me fly into the open for all and sundry, I’d rather reveal my personal thoughts to people I have learned to trust.

I liked Martin’s idea that the forums are a sacred space very much. I hope we can achieve it (or gain it back.) I have thought, though, that being in the belly of the beast is usually a solitary experience for the hero, or at least not shared with other mortals. With so many people sharing the same sacred space to metamorphose, it could get a wee bit tight and uncomfortable. And messy.

Perhaps different forums might be created for those who wished to share information about themselves in a more protected environment.

Sincerely,
Liz

By the way, I have a Master’s Degree in Japan studies, and I’ve spent several years living in Osaka. I found the process of making friends similar in both the US and Japan.

I will also say that in Japan, to my amusement, I also found myself responding to some of the most direct questions ever put to me by both friends and accquaintances alike.





All human wisdom is contained in these words: wait and hope. Alexandre Dumas <br>America: The call that every generation must improve itself. *Member Generation &quot;X&quot;*
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Post by Ted 2 » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am


Parting is such sweet sorrow...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ted on 2003-04-06 23:46 ]</font>
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Post by Clemsy » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Liz,
This sounds like a good discussion for the Art of Discourse thread.

I think you both raise important points.

Clemsy

Note: This post concerns Liz's and Tree Hugger's discussion above.

Note 2: Some of the following posts refer to an objectionable post which has since been edited.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Clemsy on 2003-04-07 08:36 ]</font>
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Post by Mark O. » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

This post has been editied to reflect recent changes. I made a request to an associate to remove an offending image, which he has since done. Thank you for complying.

Respectfully,
Mark

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: mythinker on 2003-04-07 20:40 ]</font>
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Post by Windhorse » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

How can JCF.org tolerate such inimical acts?

Having just written about the rape and murder of a beloved female relative, I am not amused by such insensitivity. I am offended.

I find myself increasingly questioning why I return to the Joseph Campbell Foundation forums. I certainly better understand why there are not many active voices.

Why would they want to share their stories and ideas when meanness of spirit is given free reign?

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Post by Cranky Scientist » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

From the forum guidelines:

Converse: If you see behavior that you feel is contrary to the letter or spirit of these guidelines, please feel free to point it out in the Conversation wherein the problem showed up.

Mark and Windhorse, I applaud and support your responses to the "Rape and Ritual" post higher up on this page. When I saw it, I was struck by its inappropriateness in relation to the discussion.

It reminds me a great deal of the post that started this whole hullaballoo clear back in early January. Right smack dab in the middle of a discussion on rape, a male associate posted a link to nude photos. In accordance with the forum guidelines, I talked about it. That led to the Tara post, which led us here.

I think it's time to inject a little Joseph Campbell into the conversation. After all, that is why we're here.

This is from "The Gift of the Goddess Chapter" from The Power of Myth. Campbell is talking about Biblical times and the first days of Judeo-Christian traditions.

Campbell: Becoming pope, that's not much of a job, really. That's a business position. None of the popes could ever have become the mother of Christ. There are different roles to play. It was the male's job to protect the women.

Moyers: That's where the paternalistic idea grew.

Campbell: Women are booty, they are goods. With the fall of a city, every woman in the city would be raped.

Moyers: There's this ethical contradiction mentioned in your book, quoting Exodus: "Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife -- except abroad. Then you should put all males to the sword, and the women you shall take as booty to yourself." That's right out of the Old Testament.

Campbell: Deuteronomy. Those are fierce passages.

Moyers: What do they say to you about women?

Campbell: They say more bout Deuteronomy than about women. The Hebrews were absolutely ruthless with respect to their neighbors. But this passage is an extreme statement of something inherent in most sociologically oriented mythologies. That is to say, love and compassion are reserved for the in-group, and aggression and abuse are projected outward on others. Compassion is to be reserved for members of your own group. The out-group is to be treated in a way described in Deuteronomy.

Now, today there is no out-group anymore on the planet. And the problem of a modern religion is to have such compassion work for the whole of humanity. But then what happens to the aggression? This is a problem that the world is going to have to face -- because aggression is a natural instinct just as much as, and more immediate than, compassion, and it is always going to be there. It is a biological fact. Of course, in biblical times, when the Hebrews came in, they really wiped out the Goddess. The term for the Canaanite goddess that's used in the Old Testament is "the Abomination."

... there was a very strong accent against the Goddess in the Hebrew, which you do not find in the Indo-European mythologies. Here you have Zeus marrying the Goddess, and then the two play together. So it's an extreme case that we have in the Bible, and our own Western subjugation of the female is a function of biblical thinking.

~Joseph Campbell and Bill Moyers, The Power of Myth, pge 171-2~

I would hope that in these forums, the men and women could play together with each other, with compassion and acceptance.

In the past few days, I have expressed aggression -- chakra 3 energy. :evil: I made a point of making sure that my aggressive energies were clear for all to see. I have a dislike of passive-aggressive chakra 3 energy dressed up like humor or fake spirituality. I wanted to make sure I didn't sound spiritual, because spirituality starts in the heart. Aggression pours from the pelvic basin, according to the chakra psychological systems that Campbell dearly loved to discuss.

Aggression -- chakra 3 -- is an animal instinct. Chakra 4, the heart chakra, represents opening to compassion. "Here you move out of the field of animal action into a field that is properly human and spiritual."(ibid, p. 174.)

For some weeks, I have played along as if all was okay, when it most certainly was not. That is against my nature and my higher values, especially when it comes to a topic as important as violence against women ... or violence against anyone, for that matter. Pretending felt damaging to my spirit.

What I would like to point out here, and I don't know if anyone will see it from my perspective, is this: Over the last 10 months there has been an extraordinary amount of aggression displayed toward me in the forums. I was even attacked in threads I was not participating in. The attacks went largely uncommented on. If someone did comment in my defense, they became a target themselves. The attacks didn't bother me much. I considered the source. What did bother me was the lack of compassion I received from other associates. It seemed out of keeping with a place dedicated to the work of Joseph Campbell. But people are people.

I feel unashamed of my own chakra 3 energies. As Campbell said, they're a biological fact. But I've never thought this was a particularly good place to display them. In the past, when I felt aggression building in me due to the attacks and the way they were ignored or supported, I withdrew, going away for as long as a month.

The attacks against me represented male against female aggression. Ten months of it.

Two days ago, I expressed aggression :evil: against male associates. I refused to withdraw this time. My aggression was certainly no worse than the aggression that's been displayed toward me. Since I expressed :evil:, we've had almost two pages of comments. Two days, two pages, many opinions and points-of-view, all of them valid, except (in my opinion) one. Yeah, 'nuff said.

Apparently, female aggression is less well tolerated, is considered more dangerous, more unhealthy, more exasperating, more ... I don't know what. Maybe it's considered more aggressive. It's so unladylike. You know, well, uhm, you could even call it an Abomination. Something must be done to end it, immediately.

There was even a brainstorming suggestion of locking the discussion so there could be no more posts. Must stop female aggression. But the male aggression -- that was allowed for months on end.

It's just something to think about. Each person can draw their own conclusions ... or not. Just to be clear: I'm not granting anyone permission to question me or criticize me on this. My shields are up. If you have your own comments to make or if you have something positive to share, I encourage it.

In the meantime ... thank you, gentlemen, for addressing the Rape and Ritual post.


Tree Hugger

Edit: Major typos, especially in quote, corrected. Book and page numbers added.


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Post by Ted 2 » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Well, good grief, Charley Brown!

I thought a book by a qualified Jungian MD that probes the depths, causes and cures of the horrible act of rape would be welcomed with open arms, if not minds.

Okay, I stand corrected.

And now, I "kick the dust off my feet."
Auf Wiedersehn
Sayonara
Au Voir
Goodbye

Hotep, Pax, Peace
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Post by Clemsy » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Associates,
Please be patient. The moderators are working on editing the Rape and Ritual post above. A reading of this thread, as Mark suggests, renders its inapropriateness clear.

Michael
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Post by Lizpete » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Thank you.

The post cannot be removed quickly enough from this thread.

I confess to being in shock since I viewed it early this morning.

Edited to add: I wish I could had been articulate in addressing the situation.

Thanks to Mythinker and Windhorse for pointing out the problems with the post in the context of the discussion and to the moderators for understanding and acting.

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Post by Scarlett » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Please let us not be so careless with the feelings of other people when dealing with emotional topics...

Intentions...they can come from positive energy or they can stem from negative enery.

Whatever the reason (intention), remember that in these forums we are dealing with human beings, not mechanic beings that simply come to the forums for information!

Scarlett


For all men live by truth and stand in need of expression. In love, in art, in avarice, in politics, in labor, in games, we study to utter our painful secret. The man is only half himself, the other half is his expression. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Post by Cranky Scientist » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

I want to thank the members of the JCF community who stood together to chase a brigand from our midst. Some of you worked openly, others worked behind the scenes.

Scarlett, Liz, Clemsy, Martin, November, Mythmaker, David, JR, and Windhorse. You are all heroes in my eyes.

I will say more later. The JCF community has changed my face from this :smile:.


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Post by Martin_Weyers » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Thank you, TH! I'm happy to have a place in your heart - and maybe in your prayers.

I didn't post another message at this place, because Mythinker has found exactly the right words to express my own thoughts and feelings. It was not only his private opinion, as some of you may have thought, but an official statement of a representant of JCF. (I'm sympathizing with Windhorse, whose feelings were hurt in a not acceptable way, after he has shared a very tragedy personal story at this place, and with whom I have changed very kind PMs since he posted his message here.)

David Kudler also expressed his gratitude for Mythinker's comment in the moderator's forum. You may have recognized, that there is a new forum which is exclusively for moderators and administrators. At this point of time there have been posted 47 messages so far (within of two days). A good part of it was about provocative and offensive public messages in the forums.

So be aware: we are there. Not 24 hours a day, but all moderators and administrators are doing the best they can to provide a safe place for posting and are trying to turn (or restore, Liz :wink: ) the forums into a sacred space for everyone, because (to quote from Manny's eNewsletter): "The Joseph Campbell Foundation's online Conversations of a Higher Order were created to meet the need of many to gather together in cyberspace to discuss the impact of Joseph Campbell's work on their lives."

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Post by Cranky Scientist » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Martin, you do have a place in my heart and in my thoughts. There is no reason I can think of to allow unpleasant circumstances to strain the bonds of friendship. I mean that for every person here who has ever been my friend.

I know my behavior in the last few days may have seemed inexplicable to some of you, most especially to the people who know me well. I probably looked as if I'd gone off my rocker.

Please note exactly where the :evil: Tree Hugger first appeared. That was no coincidence. One would have to know the life work of Bill Wilson, Carl Jung, and James Hillman, as I do, to recognize that there was a Brigand in the village.

I'm sorry if this sounds unkind, but the village had been asleep for a year. I decided to wake it up by yelling loudly.

I have been told that the perpetrator of the "Rape and Ritual" post has also used the JCF forums to post links to kiddie porn. I refused to look at those pictures.

He also posted a link to Nazi propaganda in the JCF forums. I did look at that. I was not surprised, as some of you might understand.

Moderators and Administrators: please, if you have not already done so, I respectfully request that your remove those links as soon as possible.

For you fellows who want to discuss the Goddess, please know that I have put my sword away. It was never aimed at you anyway. It's safe to come back.

I leave in peace.


Tree Hugger


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