Campbell was a Punk Rocker!

Who was Joseph Campbell? What is a myth? What does "Follow Your Bliss" mean? If you are new to the work of Joseph Campbell, this forum is a good place to start.

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Ned Kelly
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Campbell was a Punk Rocker!

Post by Ned Kelly » Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:15 pm

I submit to all of our JCF friends, that the spirit of Punk was very close to Joe Campbell's heart!

Here is exhibit number one. I am 100 percent certain that Joe Campbell would have approved of this song and all that it represents:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=OAkfHShATKY
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Post by Neoplato » Sun Nov 23, 2008 3:05 pm

Interesting, I never paid too much attention to the lyrics when the song was popular. Or maybe I was just a conformist back then?
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Post by Ned Kelly » Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:52 pm

Yeah well the fact that you are the only one in our JCF community who responded to this, proves my hypothesis that the JCF Foundation has veered far away from the teachings and wisdom of Joe Campbell.

Campbell didn't give a flying f--- about any temporarily fashionable political ideologies like today's American religion of "sensitivity". CAMPBELL WAS A MAVERICK, A REBEL!

And I am 100 percent certain that if Campbell were alive today, he would say to Americans today, "LET TEN THOUSAND INSENSITIVITIES BLOOM!"

Campbell believed in slaying all dragons who say "thou shalt not". And thus, I am 100 percent certain that Campbell would APPROVE of EVERY kind of INTELLIGENT violations of taboos on this forum!

So now, in the spirit of Joseph Campbell, let's hear this song ONE MORE TIME!
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=OAkfHShATKY
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Post by Neoplato » Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:03 pm

Ok. I take it there have been some "taboos" established in this forum. For example, people's beliefs are hindering their ability to have an intelligent conversation because they are "sensitive" about the issue. Given, I can't imagine Joe Campbell with spiked hair, earings, and being the drummer for the Clash, but I agree that the lyrics of the song, that challenge common beliefs, is Joe Campbell.

Ever read or see "The Butter Battle Book" by Dr. Seuss? The cartoon by Ralph Baski was censored in the 80's.
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Post by Ned Kelly » Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:39 pm

Neoplato wrote:
Ok. I take it there have been some "taboos" established in this forum. For example, people's beliefs are hindering their ability to have an intelligent conversation because they are "sensitive" about the issue.
Actually the taboos are more clear than what you suggest. The taboos on JCF forum are taboos against saying anything which could POSSIBLY BE PERCEIVED to be "insensitive" toward the following categories:

1. Non-Whites

2. More broadly, anyone other than White heterosexual male Christians.

Or at least that is my subjective interpretation, with good reasons.

Some months ago, on this forum I was excoriated for how I called "a spade a spade" vis a vis the CHARLATAN Deepak Chopra and his snake-oil which would have made Joe Campbell recoil. I pointed out that there is NO reason to take Deepak Chopra seriously, "except for his dark skin" which has become a fetish among a certain kind of Americans.

Joe Campbell did NOT advocate the kind of self-hatred which all too many White Westerners are indulging in now. Campbell said, that the culture and myths and civilisation of the West are the ONLY vital myths and civilisation in our time!

But it seems to me, that the JCF Foundation has been hijacked by haters of Western civilisation, the kinds of people to whom Campbell was deeply hostile.
Campbell was a GREAT DEFENDER of the West, and he would have been HORRIFIED by any and all attempts to diminish the EXTRAORDINARY significance of Western civilisation in his name.

All that said, I hope that the JCF moderators will allow me to continue to argue in this way, so that perhaps the JCF Foundation MIGHT BECOME A BIT MORE DIVERSE in a "round table" way of which Campbell would approve.
Last edited by Ned Kelly on Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:45 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Clemsy » Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:13 pm

Yes, Ned, you have your reasons. However, the civility demanded by this website is well defined. You are entitled to your definition, but you must play by ours.

This is not to be taken in any way as validating your accusations.

The tone here is specifically designed as 'higher order' discourse. That design comes from those who knew Joseph Campbell personally, and who continue the Herculean effort of collating and publishing his words.

You are also entitled to believe you know him better than they do.

Feel free to construct your own BB in which you can give expression to your view about Campbell. But don't think you're somehow going to 'enlighten' us into modifying the Forum Guidelines and the nature of our Conversations of a Higher Order.

It's been tried before.

This is a private, well defined space. You're more than welcome to participate, but if your mission is conversion rather than conversation, which is beginning to seem to be the case, then this isn't where you want to be.
...the fact that you are the only one in our JCF community who responded to this, proves my hypothesis that the JCF Foundation has veered far away from the teachings and wisdom of Joe Campbell.
That people (Who? Robert Walters? David Kudler? Bodhi? Me? )haven't responded to your post means that the Foundation has veered from the 'teachings and wisdom" of Campbell?

Really?

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Post by nandu » Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:13 pm

Ned Kelly wrote: Joe Campbell did NOT advocate the kind of self-hatred which all too many White Westerners are indulging in now. Campbell said, that the culture and myths and civilisation of the West are the ONLY vital myths and civilisation in our time!

But it seems to me, that the JCF Foundation has been hijacked by haters of Western civilisation, the kinds of people to whom Campbell was deeply hostile.

Campbell was a GREAT DEFENDER of the West, and he would have been HORRIFIED by any and all attempts to diminish the EXTRAORDINARY significance of Western civilisation in his name.
Can anybody enlighten me on where exactly Campbell said this? Books, speeches, interviews?

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Post by nandu » Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:57 pm

Neoplato wrote:Ok. I take it there have been some "taboos" established in this forum. For example, people's beliefs are hindering their ability to have an intelligent conversation because they are "sensitive" about the issue.
Wherever did you get the idea, Neo? I suggest you don't take Ned's word for it. Go to some of the previous conversations, where you can find some heated arguments on sensitive issues, with no punches pulled.

What is requested here is respect of another's viewpoint and civil behaviour. Of course, this precludes the use of the f-word which some consider their fundamental right-also racial and religious slurs. Those who have been banned in the past have been done so for breaking these "taboo"s. Let me also suggest that these taboos are enforced in all civilised drawing rooms: which is what this is, a parlour conversation hosted by Joe Campbell's near and dear.

If this feels too restrictive, I am sure there are plenty of bars available out there on the web.

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Post by Neoplato » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:01 pm

Actually, I was just trying to clarify Ned's position. I have no desire to violate any of the guidelines set by this forum. I am interested in the use of language and the way "words" are perceived by various individuals. We all establish a common belief on what words mean and we all have interpretations behind the tone and the way words are used. We must be aware that the usage of certain words may not convey the message we are trying to communicate. Using "neutral" language is the best way to convey messages that don't bring up emotional responses.

I do want to make the point that words are nothing in themselves, it's the meaning behind the words. This is a "belief schema" that all of us have. We must be aware that it is our belief schema that is causing the emotional response, and our interpretation of offensiveness. Realizing this, we can choose not to react emotionally when we know words are being used that are offensive. I always try to be aware of the words I'm using knowing that people may have an emotional response.
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Post by Clemsy » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:39 pm

Neoplato,

Your points are well taken and are reflected in an old discussion. it's a bit jumbled, but the pertinent posts speak to your point: The Art of Discourse.
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Post by bodhibliss » Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:00 pm

Ned Kelly wrote:Some months ago, on this forum I was excoriated for how I called "a spade a spade" vis a vis the CHARLATAN Deepak Chopra and his snake-oil which would have made Joe Campbell recoil. I pointed out that there is NO reason to take Deepak Chopra seriously, "except for his dark skin" which has become a fetish among a certain kind of Americans.
I'm sure you must be mistaken Ned, maybe referring to comments you posted on another website. There is only one thread that comes close to matching the description above, posted almost two years ago - "Life After Death: Chopra vs. Shermer" - but, as you can tell, you were not part of that conversation.

At least one person in that thread vocalized sentiments similar to those you express above, but that individual was banned from our site for numerous violations of our forum guidelines in a number of threads. I'd like to believe you're not suggesting you are that individual, as faking a new identity to sneak back into the forums after being banned would be an immediate and direct violation of guidelines, requiring automatic banning.

As far as Deepak Chopra and Joseph Campbell are concerned, the overlap is clear.

Both admit a fondness for the Vedanta tradition, both admit a correspondence between Krishnamurti's system of thought and their own, and both share the same basic approach and understanding of mythology. Chopra is indeed a colleague who has always credited Joseph Campbell and speaks favorably of his work and his influence. Clearly Chopra is not anti-western (as his works on Christ attest), but seeks a synthesis between east and west in both medicine, philosophy, and spirituality.

The major difference between the two, as you point out, seems to be that Chopra has dark skin - but that's hardly a reason for terming him a hater of Western civilization.

Ned Kelly writes:
Campbell said, that the culture and myths and civilisation of the West are the ONLY vital myths and civilisation in our time!


Not true, Ned. Joe did speak of individualism as an essential characteristic of Western civilization absent in Eastern disciplines, and suggested that people should explore their own mythological traditions. Specifically, though, when asked by a reporter for the Rocky Mountain News where we should look for the mythology of the future, Campbell responds
To the Orient. Look at the leading mythologies of the west - Judaism and Christianity, their followers are fighting all over the world, what a disaster!
What would Joseph Campbell, "the GREAT DEFENDER of the West," say to that? Would he be HORRIFIED at this attempt "to diminish the EXTRAORDINARY signficance of Western civilization in his name," and claim the speaker has some sort of dark-skin fetish?

Come off it, Ned - let's be serious.

Joseph Campbell celebrated diversity. He didn't suggest we "MIGHT BECOME A BIT MORE DIVERSE" by trying to extinguish diversity.

In "The Need for a New Myth," an interview with Gerald Clarke, Joseph Campbell declares the following:
It doesn't matter to me whether my guiding angel is for a time named Vishnu, Shiva, Jesus, or the Buddha. If you're not distracted by names or the color of the hair, the same message is there, variously turned.

In the multitude of myths and legends that have been preserved to us - both in our own Western arts and literature, synagogues and churches, and in the rites and teachings of those Oriental and primitive heritages now becoming known to us, we may still find guidance.
(Notice none of the mythological figures Joe mentions - Vishnu, Shiva, Jesus, Buddha - are white-skinned Caucasians ... could this statement be evidence of self-hatred by a white Westerner? Yeah, right ....)

How do we get "Campbell said, that the culture and myths and civilisation of the West are the ONLY vital myths and civilisation in our time!" from that?

We can either accept what you tell us Joseph Campbell really meant, or we can accept what Joseph Campbell tells us he meant.

I prefer the latter.

Ned, the JCF is not about to allow itself to be hijacked by haters, so please take care to be civil in your posts. I'm also intrigued by the logic that only one response within 24 hours to a post of yours on punk rock somehow "proves my hypothesis that the JCF Foundation has veered far away from the teachings and wisdom of Joe Campbell."

Wow - you must be special! Often it takes days for people to respond to a post of mine (heck, it often takes days to get around to reading new messages - most people who post here have lives that get in the way of a rapid response, so conversations unfold leisurely, over time),

but I don't have a large enough ego to assume a slow response to my post means a rejection of Joseph Campbell. (I can only wonder what a lawyer would make of such logic?).

Please learn to play nice with others, accept that not everyone will post replies at your beck and call, and understand that just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are rejecting Joseph Campbell's vision.

bodhibliss
Last edited by bodhibliss on Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by gentle71 » Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:49 pm

I am really surprised - does anyone take Deepak Chopak seriosusly. I thought this was a serious website.

And even as a new member to the forum - I must admit it to be unacceptable.

Gentle signing out -
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Post by Clemsy » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:14 pm

The website is judged on this basis? You're kidding, right?

Besides, what Bodhi said was:
As far as Deepak Chopra and Joseph Campbell are concerned, the overlap is clear.

Both admit a fondness for the Vedanta tradition, both admit a correspondence between Krishnamurti's system of thought and their own, and both share the same basic approach and understanding of mythology. Chopra is indeed a colleague who has always credited Joseph Campbell and speaks favorably of his work and his influence.
Gentle, if you feel this, and this alone, is a basis for not particpating here...

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Post by Neoplato » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:19 pm

Is this the guy?

Deepak Chopra (Hindi: दीपक चोपड़ा; born October 22, 1946) is an Indian medical doctor and writer. He has written extensively on spirituality and diverse topics in mind-body medicine. Chopra says that he has been influenced by the teachings of Vedanta and the Bhagavad Gita, as well as by Jiddu Krishnamurti,[1] and by the field of quantum physics. Deepak Chopra has had a profound influence on the New Thought Movement that has embraced him in the United States. (From Wikipedia)

He's written 37 books in 21 years which seems odd. I can't comment on his work because I haven't read it. From the Wiki description, it sounds like something the Dali Lama is involved in with the Mind&Life Institute. http://www.mindandlife.org/

Can someone clarify the controversy for me?
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Post by Clemsy » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:35 pm

He can be seen as... commercial.
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