just discovered joseph campbell

Who was Joseph Campbell? What is a myth? What does "Follow Your Bliss" mean? If you are new to the work of Joseph Campbell, this forum is a good place to start.

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CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:10 am

Hmmmm....

:?
juneindecember
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Post by juneindecember » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:09 pm

Andreas wrote:I think, I agree with jleelordb. In my opinion also, when individuals assume that they are Gods they are always destined to live defined by unconscious tendencies. Jung said that the experience of the Self is always a defeat for the Ego. Our Ego likes to be in control but experience (at least my own) proves that is not always the case. Myth helps to harmonize these energies, me thinks.
Hello all,
Forgive me, but I must confess my confusion. I do not see how it follows that those who define themselves from a position which requires that they take responsibility for the totality of their lives must then act unconsciously = irresponsibly. If I am God, then all that I experience comes to me through the medium of my own life force. Campbell, himself, felt that the being is a radiant of the energy that imbues the transcendent God. The one life in both of us is the God, the one that rules as opposed to being ruled over. I am inclined to think that jleelordb was not affirming an unconscious that rules God's actions, but a conscious embracing of all aspects of the one's experience. It but requires presence of mind to rule one's thoughts as opposed to being unconsciously ruled by them. Me thinks a God could achieve the required presence.

This brings us to the ego. The ego never takes responsibility for anything, therefore, if one willingly takes responsibility for their lives, they are discarding the ego's one unequivocal maxim. The ego seeks to control us through the tyranny of uncertainty, while the transcendent Self takes responsibility for the life It has, and for its potency as opposed to its weaknesses. One thing is sure: Life is all that is potent, my friends: all the weapons of mass destruction the world over are impotent lest there be life, else who or what is to press the button that sets said weapons off, and who or what is to care. If we would live from the potency of our own life force then perhaps we will realize the potentate.

thank all.
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Post by jleelordb » Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:27 am

Thank you, juneindecember, that's exactly what I was suggesting :)
A persons greatest effort must usually serve as it's own and only reward. - My Dad
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Post by Andreas » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:33 am

Well, juneindecember and jleellordb, apologizes if I misunderstood what was said. And I didn't mean to say that taking responsibility for our lives must then means to act unconsciously.

But I can hardly see how taking responsibility for our lives, making our own decisions or realizing the divine presence in the world or the other means to say that we are God. If we think what the properties of God are: omnipotence, omniscience, then it seems to me highly unlikely that I am a God.
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Post by juneindecember » Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:12 pm

jleelordb wrote:Thank you, juneindecember, that's exactly what I was suggesting :)
You are welcome.

June
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Post by jleelordb » Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:56 am

No apologies necessary, Andreas. I'm only trying to suggest that if God is omnipresent, than we are part of that, God is present through us. If God operates through us, and we have fee will, then whatever we do is God's will. These are all just logical conclusions stated in different ways that we are each of us, God.
A persons greatest effort must usually serve as it's own and only reward. - My Dad
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Post by Andreas » Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:19 am

Fair enough, jleelordb. :)
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Post by juneindecember » Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:19 am

Andreas wrote:...But I can hardly see how taking responsibility for our lives, making our own decisions or realizing the divine presence in the world or the other means to say that we are God. If we think what the properties of God are: omnipotence, omniscience, then it seems to me highly unlikely that I am a God.
Hello Andreas,

I see your point, and I understand. Every mystic comes upon this obstacle, that is that we as individuals are Gods; that we, who are made in God's image could possibly be anything like our Creator, and yet we go around spouting adages like, "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree".

Causal as the first cause are we, and the one thing that can prevent our knowing it is our inability to own up to it, and to take responsibility for our own, very potent, and causal, life force.

This much is obvious, (but we are very good at ignoring the obvious), we are the ones that give meaning to the things that we behold. Objects in the environment do not come forward of their own recognizance to recognize for the singular distinctions we would place upon them. For instance, the pebble does not come forward to us and declare it's pebbleness, but it remains part and parcel of the terrain. We are the ones who parse it out and define its characteristics, and we are the ones who will determine if it has any role to play in our lives, and by giving it predominance over the rest of the environment, or by allowing it to recede into the background. We act like Gods all the time, but we refuse to own up to it, and by not paying attention to what our minds are up to, because we are too busy acting like we are the ones being acted upon. Shakespeare said it best, "All the world is a stage, and all the men and women merely players".

When taking the Hero's journey, we least expect to be confronted with ourselves, but like Campbell demonstrated, it is precisely ourselves we must face. We must learn to take responsibility for our actions, because our actions are causal, and they will produce results. If we act mindlessly, the results will appear to be a surprise, an unexpected occurrence, but if we act purposefully, with an unwavering intent, then we will realize the potency of the state of being which we occupy.

As regards omniscience, this is attainable through the transcendent Self, or what Campbell has termed the Christ or Universal consciousness. An analogy would be the world wide web. The individual PC can contain a lot of data, but it is limited; even the most sophisticated computer cannot contain all the information available in the world today. If, however, we connect any computer to the world wide web, its potential is now equal to omniscience, because it is plugged into the all. Yet does this analogy fall short in that the Self, the One Life, is not a being whose mind is full of data, but it is an experience of Completeness from which all things are extracted. Sorry, that's the best I can do; words will forever fail to convey the depth of the undefinable Mystery.

Lastly, but certainly not least, I would like to talk about realizing the divine presence. If one recognizes the divine, whether in the other, in nature, or in the heavens, one must already have experience/knowledge of the divine, for one can only recognize what one knows. That is the simple truth, and I am so glad that I owned up to it, for it has set me free.

Let us free ourselves to be the beings we were created to be. We were not made to be victims, but we are causal and our state of being is potent, and meaning is ours to apportion.

Perhaps, Andreas, you have been mistaken about yourself. Perhaps you are that which I think you are = a God.

June
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Post by Andreas » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:51 am

Hey June,

Indeed I have struggled with the myth that the creation is the creator for a few years. Campbell talks about it in Power of Myth. Campbell also referenced Heraclitus who said "For God all things are good but for man some things are good and some things are bad". I don't remember the context of this quote but I am guessing Campbell was trying to make a point about morality.

He also writes about it in Myths to Live by. The Zen chapter is one of my favorite in this book. But he also tells us a story, at the end of the chapter, about how difficult it is to maintain both mindsets at the same time. That is, being a God, and at the same being a human.

So, as much as I am flattered to be a God, I prefer to be a human. It gives me perspective as to what is real. Sure, we can own meaning to a large extend, but life happens.

Personally the experience of God or unity helps me harmonize the sorrow I feel but I still fail to see any connection between taking responsibility for our lives and saying that we are God.

:)
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Post by juneindecember » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:45 am

Andreas wrote:Hey June,

...He also writes about it in Myths to Live by. The Zen chapter is one of my favorite in this book. But he also tells us a story, at the end of the chapter, about how difficult it is to maintain both mindsets at the same time. That is, being a God, and at the same being a human.
Hi again, Andreas,

It is indeed difficult to be both, but in my experience I have found it not so difficult to be one, yet, when expedient, behave as the other.
Andreas wrote:So, as much as I am flattered to be a God, I prefer to be a human. It gives me perspective as to what is real. Sure, we can own meaning to a large extend, but life happens.
Life is us, it does not happen to us. We, who posses Life are LIFE, or is there another communicable state?

We are the living. Moreover, all meaning, no matter the language used to encode it, proceeds from the Sentient mind, and extends unto other Sentient minds; it is a closed circuit. There is no outside input, therefore we ARE the ones apportioning, categorizing, valuing, and consuming meaning. (Consuming: As in eat of My flesh, and drink My blood?)
Andreas wrote:Personally the experience of God or unity helps me harmonize the sorrow I feel but I still fail to see any connection between taking responsibility for our lives and saying that we are God.

:)
Responsibility comes first because as long as we hold to the belief that life happens to us, we will see ourselves as victims as apposed to God's that have been made in the image of God. As victims we have no responsibility over what happens to us, because we have no control over life. This is simply not true. We have no idea how powerful we can become.

Jesus is a fitting example; He did not feel as if His life was taken from Him, but He lay it down of His own accord and He accepted the outcome of His actions, never blaming those who persecuted Him, but praying that they be forgiven. Life did not happen to Him, but He was the Light and the Life. He could rely on His own behavior BECAUSE He took Responsibility for it, therefore, when others were nasty, He did not REACT, but He ACTED as He saw fit, according to His own Estimation of the Life He bore.

Life is everything. There is not one thing in existence that does not come to us through the medium of Life. Life is the gift that keeps on giving, and what it gives is priceless. In fact, one has to have life before one can conceive of evaluating anything.

I no longer place limits on what I have = Life, nor on what I am = Life. I am the living one, and I am the one causing these words to appear here, and I am the one who is inoffensive, and I am the offensive one. I am the mother and the child, the friend and the foe, the teacher and the pupil......you get where I am going? And who can limit me? but only I can bench myself.

No one can disqualify me from availing myself of all Life has to offer, but myself. Though Life does not Originate in me, it does include me, and whole heartedly. Life, Itself, has only and always afforded me welcome, though I have encountered misguided souls who bid me accept the limits society would place on the Gift that I both have and AM. But I Am the imperative one, and as Thereau said, "We commonly tend to forget that it is always the first person speaking", as in verse 77 of the Gospel of Thomas:
Gospel of Thomas wrote: "I am the light that is over all things, I am all. From me all proceeds and to me all extends. Split a piece of wood and I am there, lift up a stone, and there will I be."
(Quoted from memory)

There is a mystery here that is entirely within the realm of experience. The one I AM is the ever present one, but in order to realize It = The transcendent Self, one must own up to it = act responsibly towards the Living Force we all posses, and in equal measure.

Forgive me if I seem over zealous, but freedom is so sweet, it begs to be shared.

Fondly

June








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CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear » Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:57 pm

Jesus could have chosen any point in his life to become a martyr for his beliefs. He could have lived a long and fruitful life before committing suicide-by-cop. Instead, he chose to be the young martyr, sending a misguided teaching message through the rabbit hole of time. He is a bad example for young men everywhere. Jesus was a God awful fool.

~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene
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Post by juneindecember » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:11 pm

CarmelaBear wrote:Jesus could have chosen any point in his life to become a martyr for his beliefs. He could have lived a long and fruitful life before committing suicide-by-cop. Instead, he chose to be the young martyr, sending a misguided teaching message through the rabbit hole of time. He is a bad example for young men everywhere. Jesus was a God awful fool.

~
I beg to disagree, CarmelaBear, but it takes more than a mere fool to effect humanity so deeply, and for over 2000 years, and down to this day. In point of fact in order to judge Him, you would have to know that His living a full life, or dying at a later time, would have resulted in a more powerful movement with equal longevity, and with equal trans-formative ability (not for all, but for many).

I wonder, do you feel the same regarding Gandhi? Martin Luther King, Jr? Have you answered anger with mercy or do you give as good as you get? I have been on both sides of the divide, and I must confess, it takes much more courage and strength of character to take one's stand, and not deviate from it, no matter how others may feel, let alone the threat of death. To stand one's ground though one be nailed to a cross for it, like Jesus was, or have one's tongue nailed to one's jaw bone on the way to be burned, like Giordano Bruno was, is a demonstration of their CONVICTION in their respective messages.

Consider as well that were it not for these so-called martyrs, we'd not be free to have this discussion in an open, public forum today, with no fear of reprisal. That's the simple truth, and I am so appreciative that it be so, and because I am here reaping the rewards.

Lastly, I must insist that Jesus was no martyr, He walked boldly into the valley of death, and He did not let anything sway Him from His convictions. Did not Socrates do the same? Is he a fool as well? Or is he spared the curse of foolishness due to his advanced age?

Forgive me for being so bold, but I have to say that dismissive statements prove nothing but disdain. If we would persuade others, it behooves us to provide reasons that allow for a change of heart, or mind, if anyone prefers.

And if I have offended anyone, it was not intentional.

Thanks all

June
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Post by Andreas » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:34 pm

Carmela, I believe this was the point of Kazantzakis in The Last Temptation of Christ. Christ chose a mortal life with all its suffering and joy. But Judas betrayed him by telling him that he was destined to be a martyr.

The church didn't like it much... and tried to discredit the story by depicting it as mere imagination as if the bible is full of facts... :shock:

I do wonder sometimes if God is the cause of human suffering!

:)
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Post by Andreas » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:18 pm

June,

Fools are honest and wise that is why they affect humanity. Which reminds me to be very careful in how I treat fools or those who I consider beneath me!

;)
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki
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Post by juneindecember » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:10 am

Andreas wrote:June,

Fools are honest and wise that is why they affect humanity. Which reminds me to be very careful in how I treat fools or those who I consider beneath me!

;)
Ah, Andreas, I am in total agreement with you, but there is a difference between the simple fool, and the not so simple, and doubly cursed, GOD AWFUL FOOL, wouldn't you say? There is vehemence here; this is a personal attack against a being whose sole teaching was, to paraphrase, Love your Creator with all of your being, and Love your neighbor as your self. Are the wholly Loving to be despised and feared still? In this day and age?

Love is not weak, nor does it make us vulnerable to attack, but Omnia Vinci Amor, (Love conquers all), is as valid today as the day it was uttered; I have borne witness to it, and my testimony is true.

June
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