just discovered joseph campbell

Who was Joseph Campbell? What is a myth? What does "Follow Your Bliss" mean? If you are new to the work of Joseph Campbell, this forum is a good place to start.

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CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:20 pm

Love others as you love yourself. That's the rule.

How is suicide-by-cop equated with standing one's ground? There are a million ways from Sunday that Jesus or King or Ghandi could have made their point without making themselves examples of righteous suicide. Their behavior has been imitated by zealous millions whose imagination has been stunted by the fatalism of self-negating fools.

...as you love yourself.

Where's the love, June?

~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene
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Post by juneindecember » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:11 am

CarmelaBear wrote:Love others as you love yourself. That's the rule.

How is suicide-by-cop equated with standing one's ground? There are a million ways from Sunday that Jesus or King or Ghandi could have made their point without making themselves examples of righteous suicide. Their behavior has been imitated by zealous millions whose imagination has been stunted by the fatalism of self-negating fools.

...as you love yourself.

Where's the love, June?
It is always Love that compels me to speak, Carmelabear; I have been abducted by It, and I do not care to fight it anymore. And I am a lover of Truth.

Truth is lovely. It sets us free. If I pretended not to notice your vehemence, what would it serve? But where there is conflict, the shadow is stirring.

You ask me where the love is, and I would ask you the same. Where is the love in calling those whose actions you disagree with God awful fools? This does not come from Campbell, for Joe never disparaged Jesus, only the religious hierarchy that co-opted Him in order to control the masses.

I guess I don't understand your disdain, for where you see suicide by cop, I see the triumph of Life over the prevailing powers and principalities society adhered to and promoted at the time. I see Jesus' refusal to modify or recant as the impetus for others to be willing to stand firm as well, until society is forced to change.

I don't want to give the impression that my opinion is arbitrary. I was not always a fan of Jesus. But, after hearing Campbell and considering Jesus in the light of the Hero's Journey, my opinion changed. Jesus' response to the Call to Adventure, His Whole Hearted commitment to the journey were facets I had failed to acknowledge. He is one who does not waver, though the journey may cost Him His life. He is warned, but He receives no magic helper, as in most other Hero myths, yet He gives miraculous gifts. His journey would be sad indeed if it ended at the cross, but the cross is the nadir of the journey. In Christian tradition, and according to the bible, He is rewarded, He ascends unto Heaven, and He even returns with the Gift, which He passes on to the Apostles and bids them spread it across the earth, just as the Hero in some American Indian myths receives corn seeds, or fire, which they share with mankind.

Were His demonstration of living an uncompromising life without value, His name would be meaningless to us, who live 2000 years later. But, in point of fact, it yet has power to inspire me, and power to upset you. And this is in complete accord with the way He described Himself = "The Alpha and the omega".

As regards self negating fools who commit righteous suicide by cop, let us at least be fair and ask why it is we fault Jesus for not backing down from the authorities in order to preserve His life, but we do not fault the authorities for not changing their minds, and modifying their traditions in order to not feel the need to rob Him of His life? It may appear by His actions that He valued life as little as they did, but that would be to deny His message. His message dictated that He value Life above His individual persona, and He acted accordingly. The man walked His talk, and that accomplishment, alone, is praiseworthy.

June
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Post by CarmelaBear » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:12 pm

Suicide.

I can think of nothing more vehement.

Yet, you are an apologist for it.

It is not heroism.

It is foolish.

The unquestioned assumption that there was no other way for Jesus to behave, and that the Romans somehow forced his divine hand, is rubbish. He had a choice. There is no way to sugar coat his essential choice. He used the Romans to destroy his young life.

Your rationalizations are not about faith or admiration of his courage. It is artful and deceptive. You are not addressing the fact that he, of all people, had the power to choose. He was not a victim.

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Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene
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Post by juneindecember » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:54 pm

CarmelaBear wrote:Suicide.

I can think of nothing more vehement.

Yet, you are an apologist for it.

It is not heroism.

It is foolish.

The unquestioned assumption that there was no other way for Jesus to behave, and that the Romans somehow forced his divine hand, is rubbish. He had a choice. There is no way to sugar coat his essential choice. He used the Romans to destroy his young life.

Your rationalizations are not about faith or admiration of his courage. It is artful and deceptive. You are not addressing the fact that he, of all people, had the power to choose. He was not a victim.

~
You mistake me, Carmelabear, I would have committed suicide long ago if I were a proponent of it. But here I am, taking full responsibility for my life, living, and speaking freely because of those who sacrificed their lives. For myself, I can not find it in me to disparage those whose sacrifice has benefited me, whether or not the result could have been obtained without their sacrifice.That would be tantamount to accepting a free car, then complaining that it was wastefully built, while I am having the pleasure of drive it!

You say it is an unquestioned assumption on my part that Jesus death was the only way to accomplish all He did, but you would have to have failed to read my last post mindfully in order to make that assumption, for I gave my reasons plainly. Moreover, I have not attacked you, I have merely argued against your assertions, yet you attack me, you say my reasoning is not about faith or belief in courage and dismiss my stance, never once giving a reasoned argument to the points I have made. Just more disdain, more assertions that He could have chosen a better way sans one drop of proof. Why?

Hear this now, Carmelabear,and try to comprehend, you are in no position to judge where I am coming from, nor my motives. You would have to know me as well as I know myself to do so, and I can assure you that you do not know me.

Lastly, this is a Joseph Campbell forum, and Joseph Campbell spoke often about the need to lose one's life in order to gain The One Life. If you are a fan of Campbell's, then how is it your are so set against a paradigm that Joe deemed merit worthy?
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Post by CarmelaBear » Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:26 pm

You take things I say out of context. I do not remember attacking you. Point out an attack on you personally so that we might address it directly. Take one statement and show me how it is a personal attack on you. If I engaged in personal attacks, I should be held accountable and stop that.

I am not aware of feeling personally attacked by you. Perhaps it is because I've been around the block a few times, and I do not read anything personal in your comments..I do not know the meaning you derive from my comments. I may be blind to the way my comments sound to others..

Jesus lived and died. He was not you. He made a choice. I find that choice and his actual conduct unnecessary and unacceptable. The hero paradigm in a man-god world is so ingrained in all of us that no one.......not Joe, not Jesus, not I, not you......question it. It permeates all of human culture. Finding out there is another point of view is a shock. Keeping a connection to another point of view is a real challenge.

If the mistakes great men make are viewed as wonderful, then we set ourselves up for problems that would otherwise be easier to avoid. Great men are not perfect. IMHO, Jesus could have lived longer and still achieved his goal of teaching love and saving everyone from guilt and a sense of doom. By deliberately doing away with himself, he walked into the possibility that folks like me might look askance at his actions.

Perhaps you see his suicide as being ennobled by his purpose, and we can differ on that. If you do not see the reason in what I am saying, perhaps I am choosing the wrong words.

Please understand that I hold Jesus and other leaders like him responsible for the rose colored lenses that give their premature deaths such a glorious and positive quality in the eyes of their followers. You trust them. They are your heroes. I get that. I see no fault in you or anyone else for buying what Jesus is selling. In childhood, I never questioned it for one minute. I believed in the cross, the sleigh and the basket with equal fervor.

I have my heroes, too. I admire them, and I see them as real human beings like all the rest of us. None are perfect. Few claim to be perfect. Many of my heroes are women who would understand why I believe that the boldness of the masculine temperament has reached a peak in history. This physical characteristic has led to the overpopulation of a planet that is industrialized with climate-ruining fossil fuels. The physical bodies of men are literally drawn to war genocide and crime and suicide in a way that has never been equaled by the less violent gender. It is a fact that most of Joe's heroes were men, most of history's heroes are men, and the popular culture can't get enough of the masculine way of being heroic.

Women's bodies are in the service of men to the extent that their physical beauty is always the first and last statement about a woman, no matter what she does or who she is. It's the beginning, the middle and the end of everything female. We characterize women's feelings and thoughts in relation to how men respond to them, as if male response was the end-all and be-all of every woman's life.

The youthful death of Jesus is a model of the male hero for many people, and not for me.

I am judging him two thousand years later on a model of heroics that probably did not exist in his time. In my model, he bore the weight of a lifetime before going out as a downtrodden martyr-victim.

I have the right to judge him, and I will do so. If you include yourself in that judgment, you are making a mistake. I never considered the question of you actually being somehow attracted to suicide-per se. He's a big boy. If he needs defending, let him defend himself or let other big boys defend him.

I am not aware of what I could say that would "connect" in a way that makes sense to you. Therefore, I have to stop adding more gasoline to this fire. I'm not interested in discussing Jesus in this way.

It is a touchy subject, and you are not alone in your passionately admiring view of the actions of the man in question. You can admire anyone you like for any reason you like. It is part of being free. I'm sure you speak for the majority of Christians and many mythology fans. .

I never intended to slam you. If I did so in the course of just being myself, I sincerely apologize for damage I may have caused. No one deserves to feel put down. My voice is strong and powerful. It can sound dreadfully imperious and condescending and self-righteous. It can sound like the growl of a bear, and seem extremely inconsiderate of others. I have mixed feelings about that.

About Jesus, the hero, lets's just agree to disagree and leave it at that, because nothing I say will change your mind and nothing you say will soften my attitude toward what I see as an imbalance in social norms and ideals, especially in the United States, where war and warrior sports seem to be more important than education and fulfilling work.

Again, please accept my apology. I've been gruff. I may not have done it to you on purpose, but if that's the way you feel, I have to assume responsibility for having said things that offended you in a very personal way.

~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene
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Post by captsunshine » Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:58 pm

Good day ladies ! Let me clamber on to the ring while you two go to your respective corners.
It is difficult to ascribe value to events that happened two millennia ago.
But look at the symbol .. An archetype Hero - one who is willing to his or her life, for the sake of defending or preserving his ideas/ and his integrity.
It resonates over all cultures in this planet in a very positive way.
People die, Some die for causes that they believe in and others die for causes that make them belong to a bigger whole as Obama says.
Some people die for no reason. So when someone takes his own life because he just couldn't stand another living day,- why is he a fool? - while the jaywalker who got crushed under a tanker, was just plain unfortunate and merits tons of sympathy?
This idea stems from the belief that only God can decide when we are supposed to die.
So he may have sent the tanker on its way. But he is gonna be real sore, if you beat him in the game, by choosing to end your life, by shooting yourself. Even people who cannot conceive of a God have trouble seeing both the above situations, equitably.
Personal history will also reinforce such opinions.
Ideas outlive people. Personal experiences that can be related over and over again across generations and ethnic cultures, shaping identities and new paradigm - can only be made possible, if it lock into our subconscious, where it can be played out to some degree.
In short, whether it is Krishna, jesus, gandhi or Martin, they are the reflection of a universal symbol- their 'untimely death' - in fact ,made the experience even richer and more enduring in a way.
I might sound like an MCP. But i believe that this subject cannot be discussed by women in a dispassionate way, because their lovely maternal instincts would override any other cerebral input.
Non-violence ... requires greater heroism than of brave soldiers ... The world does not accept today the idea of loving the enemy. Even in Christian Europe the principle of non-violence is ridiculed ... Christians do not understand the message of Jesus. It is necessary to deliver it over again in the way we can understand ...

- Gandhi - speech -1925
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Post by CarmelaBear » Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:16 pm

captsunshine wrote:Good day ladies ! Let me clamber on to the ring while you two go to your respective corners.

It is difficult to ascribe value to events that happened two millennia ago.
But look at the symbol .. An archetype Hero - one who is willing to his or her life, for the sake of defending or preserving his ideas/ and his integrity.

It resonates over all cultures in this planet in a very positive way.

I might sound like an MCP. But i believe that this subject cannot be discussed by women in a dispassionate way, because their lovely maternal instincts would override any other cerebral input.
Welcome, Ringmaster. Did you bring a first aid kit?

What's an MCP?

I think the subject cannot be discussed by men in a dispassionate way, because their macho paternalistic instincts would override any other cerebral input.

~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene
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Post by captsunshine » Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:48 am

MCP = Macho Catholic Priest.
Kidding ! It is short for Male Chauvinist Pig.
Macho Paternalist instincts - may not bring forth bright ideas.
But it is the right ingredient to have in anyone who would answer the Call to Adventure,and risk living at the edge of death.
Having said that, please understand that ,being macho or having paternal instinct is not confined to the Male domain.
Non-violence ... requires greater heroism than of brave soldiers ... The world does not accept today the idea of loving the enemy. Even in Christian Europe the principle of non-violence is ridiculed ... Christians do not understand the message of Jesus. It is necessary to deliver it over again in the way we can understand ...

- Gandhi - speech -1925
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Post by CarmelaBear » Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:51 am

captsunshine wrote: Macho Paternalist instincts - may not bring forth bright ideas.
But it is the right ingredient to have in anyone who would answer the Call to Adventure,and risk living at the edge of death.
Having said that, please understand that ,being macho or having paternal instinct is not confined to the Male domain.
I was copying your dismissal with my own, and if "lovely" is fru-fru feminine (not necessarily female), then the opposite "macho" is the masculine counterpart, (which is not necessarily male).

Backatcha.

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Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene
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Post by captsunshine » Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:07 am

CarmelaBear wrote:
captsunshine wrote: Macho Paternalist instincts - may not bring forth bright ideas.
But it is the right ingredient to have in anyone who would answer the Call to Adventure,and risk living at the edge of death.
Having said that, please understand that ,being macho or having paternal instinct is not confined to the Male domain.
I was copying your dismissal with my own, and if "lovely" is fru-fru feminine (not necessarily female), then the opposite "macho" is the masculine counterpart, (which is not necessarily male).

Backatcha.

~
Ahh! Gotcha..
.It is lovely to be at the receiving end of your wise rejoinder.
It is welcome because it comes from a brilliant dazzling mind, that is yours.
But then we will lose track of the thread of discussion , by trying to entertain each other.
Pray! Enlighten me as to why you think people who risk their lives for a greater cause as fools?
Why do you think that preserving /life is of paramount importance even if it means stepping away from the centre or the myth that engines their view of the world and the principles they stand for?
If you are saying that we should all play safe and give vent to our ideas or fight over it only in digital fora, then you have not identified the role of Myth and the power it holds over Human consciousness, as according to Joseph Campbell.
Or maybe you are just having a transient attack of Motherly love that compels you to
take all unfortunate souls under your wing and nurture them.
Or perhaps you have a deeper understanding of Joe's thoughts that I am ignorant of.
Non-violence ... requires greater heroism than of brave soldiers ... The world does not accept today the idea of loving the enemy. Even in Christian Europe the principle of non-violence is ridiculed ... Christians do not understand the message of Jesus. It is necessary to deliver it over again in the way we can understand ...

- Gandhi - speech -1925
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Post by CarmelaBear » Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:49 am

Personal experience, my dear Captain. I ran for student presidency in college and my running mate was killed by gunfire in a shootout with police in defense of what most New Mexicans agreed was a just cause. In my humble opinion, it was suicide by cop and tragically Jesus-like.

~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene
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Post by captsunshine » Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:22 pm

Oh! Quite tragic, I would agree.
The loss of such a brave young leader would have shaken you and your supporters.
But how is it Jesus like? Jesus never confronted anyone with violence.
He never thought violence should be met with violence.
Maybe I am missing out something in the narrative here.
I am not a Christian born or otherwise.But the archetype of the sacrificial lamb resonates in my culture, like it does in others.
As a Hindu it is easy for me to place him in the league of Buddha and Mahavira.
Or is there anything else about Jesus that I am missing?
Your angst about your mate's fatality, is based on an assumption of, what could have been his destiny, otherwise.
I personally do not think that anyone has the business or right to do that, unless of course ,
if the future involves you too, which I presume is not the case .
Non-violence ... requires greater heroism than of brave soldiers ... The world does not accept today the idea of loving the enemy. Even in Christian Europe the principle of non-violence is ridiculed ... Christians do not understand the message of Jesus. It is necessary to deliver it over again in the way we can understand ...

- Gandhi - speech -1925
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Post by CarmelaBear » Sun Oct 27, 2013 3:04 pm

Jesus overturned the tables at the temple in a violent rage, not turning the other cheek. Peter cut off the ear of a Roman soldier. Emperor Constantine went to battle inspired by a vision of Jesus. Crusaders slaughtered and looted in his name. The Spanish Catholics are known more for the Inquisition and for vanquishing the Native American cultures than for making allies and forging friendships among the Native tribes (people are complex and diverse...we do both good deeds and bad). Every Christian President made war to supposedly save America. Nearly every warrior is trying to be a saviour.

As for the student, he was like most righteous warriors who fight for a good cause by means they know are likely to provoke violence. They feel compelled to press their case against folks who do not recognize their good intentions or their right of self expression or their right to disturb the status quo.

Jesus was convicted of blasphemy, which he knew to be a capital offense against the local Jews. The Romans let the locals run their own areas, and the officials did not accept Jesus as the Messiah, just like most Americans often won't vote for anyone who cannot raise money. There are beliefs that do not budge, and it is difficult to face the challenges of living to a ripe old age. Impulsive, impatient, emotionally overwhelmed leaders push the limits too far, too soon.

~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene
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Post by captsunshine » Sun Oct 27, 2013 7:58 pm

Ok now you are accusing Jesus for not being christian enough :D
And each time a christian bites a ear or steals marbles - there he is - carrying the burden of their sins
If you substitute ' jewish officials with jewish priests .. It would throw a whole new perspective on this issue.
He was fighting against entrenched powers that dictated the fate of his people.
All offshoots of judaism took shape as separate religions because of the same dynamics- as reaction against the primacy of the priest in the society.
Islam being the newcomer.. Even though, eventually it too became hostage to the wiles of clergy ,like christianity
A good example is Iran .
As for the conquistadors, inquisition and constantine... Wow ! you brought in the entire world history to lay the blame squarely on his shoulders .. I find that amusing.
Its like holding Cadburys culpable for every tooth that is decayed in your country. :lol:
Non-violence ... requires greater heroism than of brave soldiers ... The world does not accept today the idea of loving the enemy. Even in Christian Europe the principle of non-violence is ridiculed ... Christians do not understand the message of Jesus. It is necessary to deliver it over again in the way we can understand ...

- Gandhi - speech -1925
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Post by CarmelaBear » Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:20 pm

Focus on the suicide part. IMHO, Jesus committed suicide by cop, when he was a young man. I believe he knowingly made himself a really bad example for others. Personally, I do not admire that behavior.

It is different from the life guard or firefighter who rescues people. They take risks, but they are trained to prevent casualties. They do not expect to be killed. They do not seek death a means to achieve something "great".

Heroes usually do not know the time and place of their inevitable doom, but followers of Jesus acknowledge that he designed his own special martyrdom. Certainly those who have deified him, ascribe omniscience to their hero, and assume he chose the exact hour and manner of his own demise.

Jesus meant well. I'll give you that. His ideals and his good intentions are up there with the best of the best. The fact that he chose to have the authorities destroy him at a young age is not a sign of good judgment.

For folks like me, his one big flaw just happens to be a game changer. I regard his suicide as unnecessary. It tends to cast doubt on his identity as a symbol of salvation. I see him as trapped in a vise. People expected him to offer himself up as a lamb on his father's altar, and he felt compelled to oblige. Campbell tells us that agricultural cultures required sacrifices, because life could only emerge out of death. Jesus was part of such a culture.

~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene
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