Campbell and Rumors of Anti-semitism

Who was Joseph Campbell? What is a myth? What does "Follow Your Bliss" mean? If you are new to the work of Joseph Campbell, this forum is a good place to start.

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Evinnra
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Post by Evinnra » Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:20 am

On 2006-12-11 18:04, CarmelaBear wrote:
As a white person, I'm sure I must harbor racist attitudes deep down in my soul. If I were to worry about it too much, I'd be even more neurotic than I already have become from just growing up Catholic and being American (ie, guilty of just about everything). I do my best to avoid situations where I would be perceived as competing with African Americans for anything of value. There are times when I would not want to win the race or merit the prize. Sometimes, I'd rather be dead last.
OUCH!!!! Carmela?!?! Insert in the place of 'African American' any ANY other group's name and it demonstrates how animosity and hatred is spread around evenly. But that is precisely what you intended to show. Right? How playing the victim can gather violent groups together and set them up for revenge. OK. I get it, I'll shut up. Must admit I have no experience in stirring others to serve my interest.

God forbid I should ever become the victim, it seems I wouldn't have the faintest clue how to ask for help.

Evinnra


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Post by Evinnra » Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:06 pm

On 2006-12-11 22:25, nandu wrote:
On 2006-12-11 17:56, Evinnra wrote:
How about shunning everyone crying 'ANTI'?
Why Evinnra! You are "Anti - ANTI"? Shame on you!

(Just joking <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> )

Nandu.
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Post by FourSwords » Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:53 am

Actually, I know someone who called himself "anti-anti-Communist" during the Cold War - by which he meant, he was against a certain kind of opportunistic "anti-Communism" such as that of Nixon.

However, in his own way he was against Communism. But he coined the term, "Anti-Anti" to describe his attitude toward the opportunistic kinds of "anti-communists."

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Fourswords on 2006-12-12 04:10 ]</font>
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Post by nandu » Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:40 pm

Actually, Evinnra's post brings up some interesting questions.

We all have prejudices, depending upon our cultural, economic and racial backgrounds. Whatever opinions we pronounce are coloured by our prejudices; as long as we know they are prejudices and not absolute laws, I don't think we'll be a problem to society.

But the moment we air our views, suppose someone shouted "ANTI!"? I have been accused of being anti-Muslim, anti-Christian (on these forums itself) and (believe it or not!) anti-Hindu. I have a prejudice against fundamentalism of any sorts that leads me to criticise organised religion and its apologists. That does not mean I am against these people following their religion as long as they don't disturb me. Am I "ANTI"?

But we cannot shut our eyes to the fact that there are lot of real hatred-spewing groups out there who are Anti-Semitic, Anti-Non-White, Anti-Communist etc. Just do a search of the net come upon the websites of these graeat groups. They have to be identified and isolated.

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Post by CarmelaBear » Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:26 am

Because of the kind of work I do and the circumstances under which I perform my duties, I sometimes feel overwhelmed both physically and emotionally. When that happens, I don't have the emotional resources to look at an issue with fresh eyes and objectivity. It's all I can do to note that there is some kind of issue.

I hope I feel better soon, but right now, I've just read some of Vissi's response to my earlier comments (which I deleted and she unearthed -- bless your pea-pickin' heart, Dixie!). I have answers. I just can't muster them right now. I'm exhausted and stressed.

I don't want to talk about Joe and the Jews and some guy who criticized him. Maybe later. I wish I could cry. All I can do is say that I understand things and understanding doesn't help. I feel so badly about so many things that I just have to disconnect from them altogether, get my own body back to some semblance of well-being and hope to return to the issues with more vigor.

I am frustrated about the situation that exists in the Middle East. Joe Campbell said that the fight is religious. The fundamentalists on both sides are prepared to use extreme forms of violence and economic coercion to establish their convictions. The moderates are willing to empathize with the other side and negotiate for much-needed peace. The secular humanists are judgmental and impatient, sometimes strident (that's me).

This I know for sure. The vast, vast majority of Americans (not the ones who write and write, pound the halls of Congress, collect money for causes, etc.) are as overwhelmed by the situation of the Jewish people as I am, and want only for the Jews to be treated with respect and high regard, befitting those who have raised up their own and brought us to great heights by their work.

Belonging to a group, any group, obviously carries consequences. Social scientists can tell you that certain groups are literally, physically different from all others. No sooner has such a generalization been made about the distinguishing characteristics of that group and it turns out that most of the members of the group cannot relate to that observation and reject it as a "stereotype" or worse.

Example: physical challenges are very real. You're either 100% blind or you're not. One can discuss "the blind" as long as one assumes that none of them are able to see with their eyes. As soon as you begin to expand this to discuss perception (including other senses), you are venturing into unknown areas, where angels don't dare to tread.

I believe that as a member of certain groups, there are times when it's impossible to know whether people are excluding me because of my background as a cash poor individual or as a descendant of mixed races and ethnic groups and nationalities (the Spanish-Mexican-American like me is essentially from a mixed gene pool) or because of my being a woman with a certain set of liberal political beliefs. Maybe I'm being excluded because they're having a bad day, and I'm an easy mark. Maybe I'm the one having the bad day, and I've made myself a target.

I'm going back to my cave bear's den, where I can figure out how to deal with my situation. The feelings of exhaustion constitute a physical malady sufficient to except myself from this and any other taxing discussion...for the moment.

As much as I enjoy the challenge of the forums, I feel that the internet tends to dissipate the energy that is invested here. It goes to the four winds and disappears into thin air. At this moment, for whatever reason, I find that un-bear-able.


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Post by Vissi » Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:13 pm

Carmela,

I won't trouble you with further discussion. However, the following statement is untrue.

CarmelaBear wrote:
I've just read some of Vissi's response to my earlier comments (which I deleted and she unearthed -- bless your pea-pickin' heart, Dixie!).
Here are the statements I quoted. They are extant in the Campbell and Rumors of Anti-Semitism thread as of today, 14 December at 3:47pm MST. I "unearthed" nothing.

Carmela wrote:
According to former president Jimmy Carter, there is "no debate" about Israeli policy here in the states. It is, in part, on account of the "free pass" we give to those who are associated with the Old Testament (our BIG religious myth) and the victims of World War II and the holocaust. We have a blind spot on the subjects of Jews and Israel. We are, in a manner of speaking, taken by them.
Carmela also wrote:
IMHO, there are extreme forms of anti-semitism that do not include whatever problems Jews may have with the views expressed by Joseph Campbell. One form is the racism of the neo-Nazis and aryan supremecists and another is the fundamentalist Islamic rejection of everything Jewish and Israeli. Neither of these extremes have a significant following in the U.S. or E.U., though I must admit that the clout of the oil-rich nations like Saudi Arabia can be rather impressive sometimes.

What I don't understand is why it's necessary to nitpick Joe Campbell when there are armed and dangerous foes just waiting in the wings to pounce on anyone with the temerity to suggest that equality and democracy and diversity are not only good things, but absolutely necessary to the smooth-functioning of the world economic, social and political systems.
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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Vissi on 2006-12-14 16:46 ]</font>
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Post by WRS » Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:00 pm

On 2003-05-19 15:14, Fin wrote:
Has anyone else been told of the rumors that Campbell was anti-semetic? I can't imagine how they could hold water, but I wonder how they got started? I've met some very educated people (professors) who shy away from discussing him because of these rumors. Doesn't make any sense to me.
I find it amazing that people who have had nothing but some sort of religious indoctrination from birth can believe they are intelligent. Yet there they are doctor’s lawyer’s scientist so called theologian’s even philosophers all saying they believe in whatever deity their society drummed into them. Especially so when nearly all the information about these groups would under any normal circumstances have the leaders of these various sects taken out and shot for crimes against humanity and intelligence. So on a cosmic scale a group of morons who call themselves humans whose existence on an atomic scale hardly registers have the cheek to impinge upon not only their fellow cellar dwellers but the cosmos in general various gods of their own creation. Doesn't make sense to me!Nor I think Campbell. Remember as soon as you name you isolate, so I would appreciate people not naming anybody as anything unless they do it themselves. And my view of Campbell wasn't alined to anything a religious person could relate to.
Macsam



[Moderator's note: Only formatting of this post (quotation) has been changed by me, not the content of the message. -- Hola Mascam, I take the opportunity to say welcome to the JCF forums!]

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Post by Evinnra » Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:46 am

On 2007-01-07 17:53, macsam wrote:
On 2003-05-19 15:14, Fin wrote:
Has anyone else been told of the rumors that Campbell was anti-semetic? I can't imagine how they could hold water, but I wonder how they got started? I've met some very educated people (professors) who shy away from discussing him because of these rumors. Doesn't make any sense to me.
I find it amazing that people who have had nothing but some sort of religious indoctrination from birth can believe they are intelligent. Yet there they are doctor’s lawyer’s scientist so called theologian’s even philosophers all saying they believe in whatever deity their society drummed into them. Especially so when nearly all the information about these groups would under any normal circumstances have the leaders of these various sects taken out and shot for crimes against humanity and intelligence. So on a cosmic scale a group of morons who call themselves humans whose existence on an atomic scale hardly registers have the cheek to impinge upon not only their fellow cellar dwellers but the cosmos in general various gods of their own creation. Doesn't make sense to me!Nor I think Campbell. Remember as soon as you name you isolate, so I would appreciate people not naming anybody as anything unless they do it themselves. And my view of Campbell wasn't alined to anything a religious person could relate to.
Macsam



[Moderator's note: Only formatting of this post (quotation) has been changed by me, not the content of the message. -- Hola Mascam, I take the opportunity to say welcome to the JCF forums!]

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Martin_Weyers on 2007-01-07 17:59 ]</font>
Well, macsam, your post doesn't make any sense either. Who and where are the subjects/objects to which the adjectives are connected to? What are you attempting to say in your post?

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Post by WRS » Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:33 pm

On 2007-01-07 22:39, Evinnra wrote:
On 2007-01-07 17:53, macsam wrote:
On 2003-05-19 15:14, Fin wrote:
Has anyone else been told of the rumors that Campbell was anti-semetic? I can't imagine how they could hold water, but I wonder how they got started? I've met some very educated people (professors) who shy away from discussing him because of these rumors. Doesn't make any sense to me.
I find it amazing that people who have had nothing but some sort of religious indoctrination from birth can believe they are intelligent. Yet there they are doctor’s lawyer’s scientist so called theologian’s even philosophers all saying they believe in whatever deity their society drummed into them. Especially so when nearly all the information about these groups would under any normal circumstances have the leaders of these various sects taken out and shot for crimes against humanity and intelligence. So on a cosmic scale a group of morons who call themselves humans whose existence on an atomic scale hardly registers have the cheek to impinge upon not only their fellow cellar dwellers but the cosmos in general various gods of their own creation. Doesn't make sense to me!Nor I think Campbell. Remember as soon as you name you isolate, so I would appreciate people not naming anybody as anything unless they do it themselves. And my view of Campbell wasn't alined to anything a religious person could relate to.
Macsam



[Moderator's note: Only formatting of this post (quotation) has been changed by me, not the content of the message. -- Hola Mascam, I take the opportunity to say welcome to the JCF forums!]

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Martin_Weyers on 2007-01-07 17:59 ]</font>
Well, macsam, your post doesn't make any sense either. Who and where are the subjects/objects to which the adjectives are connected to? What are you attempting to say in your post?

Evinnra
Evinnra calling Campbell anything is like calling an elephant a potato. And the other point is Campbell examined his own spirituality where as the people who aline/question/agree/disagree etc are coming from an idealology they were indoctrinated into and are intent on flasely using Campbells beliefs to either enhance their dogma ( The Secret dvd ) or trying to discredit him as most of this is about. Quite frankly I don't think he would have cared because as a debate it is pretty nonsensical, in fact some sort of rediculous witch hunt. And as for who and where its meant to be all inclusive so the guilty can react as they feel appropiate, because over the centries they all have a lot to answer for acting from blind obedience. I hope that answers your enquiry, if not I have nothing further to say on the subject.
Macsam
Macsam quote]
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Post by Evinnra » Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:20 am

... and thanks God for that. I still can't make 'heads and tails' out of this post.
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Post by WRS » Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:06 pm

On 2007-01-09 04:59, Evinnra wrote:
... and thanks God for that. I still can't make 'heads and tails' out of this post.
Thats OK having read a few of your "many" other posts, I understand why someone in your position could not possibly understand.
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Post by Evinnra » Mon Oct 17, 2005 8:53 am

That is easy to answer when you have no position clearly stated. As a matter of fact my cat could have given the very same answer, only more lucidly. <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

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Post by WRS » Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:40 pm

On 2007-01-09 21:20, Evinnra wrote:
That is easy to answer when you have no position clearly stated. As a matter of fact my cat could have given the very same answer, only more lucidly. <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

Evinnra
I last read Campbell about ten years ago, and one item I recall was when he was giving a talk in New York, afterwards a nun came up to him and said after listening to him she had decided to leave her order. Campbells was happy for her, judging by your posts he would not be happy for you. Maybe your cat can read it for you it is about people from indocrinated faiths who try and bully their way around the world. Which raises the question why would a confirmed catholic be such a rabid poster on Campbells site.
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Post by nandu » Wed Nov 09, 2005 12:26 pm

Mac,

From reading your posts in different threads, I think the point you are trying to make is that the dogma of the monotheistic religions is preventing a proper appreciation of myth as Campbell understood it. Since you feel so strongly about it, why don't you start a separate thread in "Conversation with a 1000 faces"? There are many here who are interested in the question, and we are sure to get insightful replies.

And we can leave Evinnra's cat alone! <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif">

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Post by Evinnra » Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:13 am

Macsam,
On 2007-01-09 23:51, macsam wrote:

I last read Campbell about ten years ago, and one item I recall was when he was giving a talk in New York, afterwards a nun came up to him and said after listening to him she had decided to leave her order. Campbells was happy for her, judging by your posts he would not be happy for you. Maybe your cat can read it for you it is about people from indocrinated faiths who try and bully their way around the world. Which raises the question why would a confirmed catholic be such a rabid poster on Campbells site.
HA! *Patting self on the shoulder* Finally I’ve managed to get a clear statement out of you; you think those who call Professor Campbell ‘anti-Semite’ are doing it because they are ‘indoctrinated’. Hence in your mind perhaps all people who have ever been ‘indoctrinated’ into a system of religion are (a) calling others names, (b) bully their way around the world. Do you see how your statement generalise everyone under the same assumption? You have made an assumption on other people’s stance based on some experience you’ve had with ‘indoctrinated’ people. That is the same attitude as not giving a job to a person because of the colour of his/her skin; in short this attitude is discriminatory and prejudiced. Of course you are free to do that, only don’t be surprised if people will treat you the same way in response.

Then you raise the question: ‘why would a confirmed Catholic be such a rabid poster on Campbell’s site’? Again, this statement reveals a set mind intent on dishing out prejudice to be shared around. Have you heard that in the last twenty or so years the Catholic Church made a number of attempts to open up conversation with different religions? And by the way, Professor Campbell was Catholic. It would be rather strange if people received prejudiced treatment on a website that is dedicated to a Catholic person’s work and legacy.

Evinnra

p.s. Why do I get the feeling that I am speaking to the same person over and over again? Its becoming very very boring and at the same time frightening.

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