The Sun In Cusco

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BowOfTime
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Post by BowOfTime » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

I’m interested in any off hand information regarding sun worship in myth. For example, in which myths, religions, or cultures was the sun most prevalent. Are any of these rituals still practiced? As well, do they ever directly imply the sun as a symbol for time’s passage (in a context regarding the evolution of consciousness, and an abstract recognition of the presence of time as a cosmologic factor)? Perhaps others reading this might even recount experiences suggesting the presence of potential archetypes implying this theme. For me this seemed to develop as a child, and continues till this day.

The reason for asking is in part due to a recent venture to Peru. The events that developed leading there were extremely unexpected and strange - prier to December, I’d never once considered going there. Thus, considering my 8 year focus relating to a sun/time theme, I was very interested to discover that Incas in Cusco not only continue to practice a summer solstice ritual (as the years most significant celebration), but as well tend to recognize it in their traditional mythic context - even though today’s public ceremonies are masked by catholic iconography. This was at least the impression I got from talking with natives. Considering the role of the sun in their mythology, this development seemed very significant - symbolically - regarding my interests.

BowOfTime

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Post by Mark O. » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

You might wish to check into the works of Kuhn and Müller in regards to solar mythology. Both have been challenged and even ridiculed (especially Müller), but they will at least steer you toward some of the debates, issues, and cultures that are concerned with sun worship.

Mark

P.S. Welcome back - long time no read!
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Post by ALOberhoulser » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Good lead Mark!

I found this by Kuhn.

Here's a link to online documents from the theosophical society.

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Post by BowOfTime » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Thanks for the suggestion and links so far.

Not sure yet if it's what I'm looking for. One of the issues I'm interested in, is whether there are any current traditions practicing rituals directly pertaining to the sun - to the degree of significance it seems to be given in Cusco.

As well, there is this dimension of time. So far I've not found anything which directly associates it to the sun - in the context which I'm focus. The type of direct association I'm interested in, is perhaps comparable to the tendency for Kronos/Cronus to be directly affiliated with a personification of time (if I'm correct in my recollection of this association). I believe this association is derived in part from the linguistic similarity of how the words for Cronus and time sound and/or is written.

Also, it's great to be back Mark! Just try finding a damn McDonald's in Cusco - I was about to starve! The corn there is bigger than a Yugo, but tastes like shoe-laces. Not that I'm in the habit of eating shoes; I've just sometimes had to pull them out of my mouth along with my foot. :smile:

BowOfTime

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Post by KellyO » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am


Hi BowOfTime,
I too, was recently in Cusco. (November). It is a very fascinating place. Did you get to Machu Picchu? The reason that I ask is while there (MP), I was thrilled to see the temple of the Sun, and the Alter where the only existing “Sun Hitch” is still in existence (the Spanish destroyed all that they could find). What a great place to celebrate the Solstice.

I have to agree with you on the corn. :smile: I found that the pizza wasn't too bad, but definitely had to stay away from the Guinea Pig. (!!).

--Kelly


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Post by BowOfTime » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Hi Kelly,

Went to Machu Picchu, but missed the "Hitching Stone." Can you believe it! Guess this means I have to return (preferably at the autumnal equinox, or summer solstice). If I'm correct, I believe you mean "The Temple of the Moon" at Machu Picchu. I missed that too; but this was a choice due to time restrictions - my primary interest was to hike up Wayna Picchu. What a view! The Temple of the Sun in Cusco was as well of great interest to me.

Not sure what it must have been like in November - would be interested to know? Along with it being cool (summer there), it rained the day and night prier for us; so the Urmbamba River was nearly sublime. The force and sound of such an immense and raging flow was beyond anything I'd been equipped to anticipate.

I didn't get a chance to try the Guinea Pig. I think... There was this hamburger - thinking it a safe choice - which tasted nothing like beef, and was a bit chewy on the gooey side. Now I'm getting scared.

BowOfTime
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Post by KellyO » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am


I'm not sure if/how I can include a picture, or I'd show you the hitching post, or the "Intihuantan," which literally means 'where the sun is tied'. (URL to it below). My mistake. After referring to my book, The True History of Machu Picchu, by Darwin Paredes, it is located in what is referred to as the pyramid of MP, or a natural hill, the highest point of land. It forms a compass in the four cardinal directions, and they could mark the solar events. Legend has it that the square part sticking up would be where the priests would ceremoniously “hitch” the sun each night to make sure that it would rise the next day.

http://www.culturefocus.com/machupicchu-7.htm

Darwin (who was our tour guide) was quite a character. His love and excitement of MP was very infectious. He’s very committed to the place and wrote this book explaining all of the damage that was/is being done, lobbying to end it. (Did you know for example that there used to be a giant obelisk is the middle of the yard area? It was destroyed when the government decided to take some people up there in a helicopter and they needed room to land it). I recommend him as your guide if you ever get back.

Climbing Wayna, wow, that’s quite a climb. You must have great pictures. I just milled around the site for a while after our tour. The November weather was OK. Still a little chilly up there, but very warm in Cusco. I went then because I had reservations at a eco lodge in Ecuador for then. A wonderful place called the San Jorge. Just an incredible place—horse back riding/hiking through these mountains where the Incas used to be.

Yea, I stayed away from the Guinea Pig myself. Was a joke with me and my friend—we just kept picturing these cute little animals kept as pets by children. And small—you wouldn’t figure them for a meal!



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Post by SkiaOura » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

BowofTime,

If you are only interested in historic myths and worship then this will be of no help. On the other hand, if you ask around, you will might discover that someone you know worships the sun four times daily with this ritual:

http://64.227.194.192/library/libers/lib_0200.html

I did, and still periodically do, this ritual daily.

Skia.
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Post by BowOfTime » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Kelly, was Darwin of Incan or European decent - although I don't think the original Charles grew up in Peru. While on the train to MP, there were two friendly Incan guides (educated and spoke English well) sitting across from me. Unfortunately I can't recall their names - both were younger (late 20's to early 30's).

I'd considered a guide, or researching the area before going, but chose a more spontaneous encounter. Due to the way the whole trip developed - separate trains for Peruvians and foreigners - and its effect upon time spent there, even at MP my focus was on returning someday to stay longer. This "Hitching Stone" issue appears to reinforce that interest: potentially a subconscious factor motivating me to miss it. I wanted to take photos of the entire site (with as little intent as possible), so it's a bit odd that unconsciously I seemed compelled to overlook the sites most significant mythic aspect. Checking my photos, there's not one of the stone; but there are many of the area where it seems to be. Not once did I even contemplate going up there, although fully conscious of that location. If I'd at all thought of going up, there would have been no hesitation. So missing it as I did, is in a sense as potentially significant as seeing it - especially considering its relation to the equinox, and the events which developed and lead there. Which brings me back to the Temple of the Moon, and it's enhanced significance upon any such return.

I can't image how big such an obelisk might have been! There is so much space there, you'd think destroying it completely unnecessary. Do you know of any photos of it? It must have been spectacular! Also, I'm surprised it was warm in Cusco. I was there at their heart of summer; it was freezing - due to the altitude and weather; but even on a very clear day it was still quite cool.

As for the Guinea Pigs, it too was a constant point of jest. I then describe Kentucky and what my grandmother - from the country - ate growing up. She'd fight for squirrel brains! Looking disgusted, a comment followed, "but that's a big tailed rat." Go figure.

Thanks for the link Skia.

I'm not familiar with the ritual. What is it's origin? I'm most interested in historic rituals currently practiced - similar to Cusco. I'm wondering if at one of the highest cities on earth, whether their worship of the sun is the world's most developed; whose central mythologic deity is the sun. However, your personal interest in sun worship is very interesting.

Understanding as we do in a modern scientific context - and considering the range of intellect you've expressed in other posts - the tendency to associate mystic attributes with the sun raises questions. I have little question regarding modern explanations for the sun. Nor do I question the possibility that it, as a symbol, has a high probability of serving to promote some instinctual release mechanism; but - from personal experience - I can't deny the possibility that something very strange seems to develop beyond currently accepted cosmologic possibilities. For me, it's fascinating how this tendency develops in relation to the sun. Stating this with great hesitance, I recognize how rare such abnormalities are, which in turn justifies skepticism. Especially considering the obvious human tendency to falsely perceive, and even manipulate unconsciously, ones environment. Yet this theme does seem to create a mystery for life, making the play that much more interesting: through the endurance of suffering, to then questioning, and become blessed. Perhaps this then is a value for integrity! Considering that of all things, integrity seems to cost the most with an inversely limited physical return.

BowOfTime

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Post by KellyO » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Darwin’s full name is “Darwin Camacho Paredes”. He looked to be in his 40’s. He’s been exploring MP since his youth. Fascinating man.

There are a couple of known pictures of the obelisk. They are in Darwin’s book (he’s such a rebel). He doesn’t give the original dimensions, but it was taller than a man by a few feet (man standing next to it in one photo), and looks to be about 4 feet wide and 3 feet deep (I’m guessing). Come to a ‘knife’ type shape at the top. When it was buried, it was smashed up, so there is no way to know for certain. There is not much said about it as the government wants to downplay it (for obvious reasons). You can still see the stone “footing” in the area where it sat.

Also of note, the “hitching post” stone itself was damaged (chipped) during the filming of a beer commercial. Seems a camera crane fell on it. Amazing. It survived the Spanish, but now has withstand the Peruvian government. The biggest problem, according to Darwin, is the erosion. The stones which stood for all these years are starting to fall out of place. Very sad. He is trying to lobby for better sculpting of the land, and roofs for the buildings (which they were all designed to have).

Just a thought, I believe in reincarnation and have found that many of the things which we are fascinated with have simple explanations from past lives. You might consider a past life regression; I bet that you would find that you did practice sun worship at some point, and it was a very strong life for you (to be “bleeding through” to this one).

Best,
--Kelly


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Post by BowOfTime » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

I tend not to entertain ideas regarding reincarnation - due to lacking a range of experience (personal or anything convincing from others) suggesting the possibility of validation. However, it's interesting you brought this up.

A few days before leaving for Peru, my car suddenly began to overheat. It had never done this before. Fortunately it was very cold, I was feeling lazy, and would turn it off to cool down while coasting. Bear in mind, over the years I've tended to encounter strange events seeming associated with sudden car problems. The development of interest here seems to be a possible overheating theme.

Later in Peru, a few days before going to Cusco, I got sun burnt - actually the same day we bought flight tickets to there from Lima. I've played golf seriously nearly all my life, so being in the sun and getting burnt was nothing new. However, by the following day I woke to discover my forehead swollen. A few days later in Cusco, it had grown, and was moving. By the morning of traveling to Machu Picchu, so to was this bulge trekking over my skull. By shifting down around my eyes, they now appeared a bit Asian; or better yet, Incan! And as well between them, the ridge of my nose was much more flat. In effect, the swelling caused me to look like someone other than myself. Even though I didn't then, nor do I still give it much legitimate consideration, the fact is yet inescapable that all day while at MP, I was contemplating your very suggestion. As well, this was the first time a sun burn has ever caused me to swell. Thus perhaps accentuating a symbolic sun value, while among those most devout to it's worship. Odd, considering a sun theme appeared first in my life early as a child - or so I believe.

There is one other thing, and it brings me back to the overheating car. Each time my vehicle has seemed to developed a strange problem over the past few years, it's occurred at the same location; which some cultures in turn, might consider the source of an addiction. It just so happens that when I first noticed it beginning to overheat, I was - at that exact moment - turning into that very place to fulfill this very need. For me, this serves to exemplify the biggest problem with living in Peru. So during my trip, I asked... and I searched... but never found a such public resolution. Shortly before returning home, after complementing others on the country's beauty and hospitality, I felt a need... no... an obligation, to repeatedly point out what makes America so great - in comparison to the way these people live. I'm not sure if any of them were offended, and frankly I didn't care. It's like the dark ages there! Something has to change! How can any race of people consider themselves civilized - in accord to western standards - when you go to a country which lacks the capacity to sell one freaking ICEE! As you may recognized, it appears my overheating car (first noticed in Kentucky, while turning to get an ICEE) foretold that while in Peru I'd be unable to find a cold drink - in turn causing me to overheat, and swell from the Sun.

BowOfTime
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Post by Painted Owl » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Bowoftime,Hi,interesting thread.I spent in my younger years sometime on Baffin Island and I believe they have to have a different slant on time.I was told afer the six months of darkness they have a ritual of going from one household to another,after the first lamp is lighted,all the others are lit from it.

Unfortunately at the time I was concerned only with work,only later to develop an interest in mythology.I hope you do not find this off topic,I do not believe it is,something you might consider looking into.I got the feeling while I was there that
they save guard some of their traditions from the whiteman as there is historical indications of native values and beliefs being degraded.Hope this hint proves fruitful.
"Those whom know the most must mourn the deepest orr the fatal truth, the tree of knowledge is not that of life." Goethe
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Post by BowOfTime » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Great to see your around Owel - been missing the posts.

Now your on my envy list. Baffin Island! Had to look it up, and discovered it's in a region I desperately want to visit. Definitely not off topic. It brought some new possibilities to my attention - I plan to look further into this Inuit take on the sun and time. I seem to recall a post of yours long ago mentioning something about you in the arctic. What exactly did you do there? If you don't mind me asking.

BowOfTime
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Post by Painted Owl » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Hi,Bowoftime,yes I am glad you are interested. I wish I was more versed now in Inuit mythology,might do that anyway.

It is a strange feeling to be in a place where the sun is at high noon at four O'clock in the morning,Inuit children playing with no reguard for time.

One chap I had working for me whom had promised to be at work the next day failed to show up.I was new there so did not really know the score.Anyway the next day I thought I would take him aside and kind of shame him for not being relieable.He looked me straight in the eye and said,O'it was to nice a day to work,after a time there I realized he was right.

I am sorry I cannot be more helpful.I feel I missed a wonderful opportunity in being so self absorbed while on Baffin Island.The people themselves are a strong, warm,and intelligent people.

Should you journey there,try and arrange to send as much time as possiable up there,just take care,some fellows whom send to much time up there never return south.But give the place enough time to work its majic,might sound strange,but its a beautiful place.
"Those whom know the most must mourn the deepest orr the fatal truth, the tree of knowledge is not that of life." Goethe
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Post by Poncho » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 am

Hi BowofTime

If you do get the chance to try a guinea pig sandwich or burger you'll have the British lottery players to thank! Some of the profits from the lottery were supposed to be used to support charities in the UK. As you can imagine, with a left of centre government in power, the right of centre press has had great fun checking on which charities get support and those that don't. Surprise, suprise wads of lottery cash have been thrown at loads of trendy wendy organisations many of which have nothing to do with the UK e.g. helping Peruvian farmers to breed meatier guinea pigs. If you're interested press HERE

When I went to Peru several years ago I did the Inca trail. It took three days. I was with a group of mixed nationalities on an adventure "holiday". When we arrived at MP we looked down at the site but it was shrouded in mist. Bit of a bum deal. By the time we had entered the ruins the mist had cleared!

Whilst over there I got badly bitten by flies and things. When I got home most of the bites had become infected, but I was able to get most of the pus out. The only one that I couldn't sort out was the one in the middle of my back and which I couldn't reach either. It wouldn't open either.

About two weeks after my return the wound suddenly burst and the back of my shirt was drenched. It hurt too, a bit like when the top comes off a blister. It happened again two days later.

A few days after that I was playing a very bad game of squash. I was running around the court and suddenly I could feel blood pumping out. My squash partner whipped up my shirt to have a look.

He then said, "I don't want to worry you mate but it looks as though you've got something moving around in there."

I shot off to the hospital. They kept me in overnight. What I found though was that every time the nurses changed shift they would come in to plump up my pillows. Having got me to bend forward they took the opportunity to take a close look at my "war" wound. I've never had so much female attention either before or since. Girls in uniform are great.

The next day I was wheeled into the operating theatre. I was given a general anaesthetic. The next thing I knew was a nurse waking me upand who was waving a little something in a plastic pot at me. It was now dead. It was apparently the larva of the la tomba fly. When the wound had first burst it must have been the larva hatching out of its egg and it was just kicking around. A bit like the film Alien, when the "thing" bursts out of John Hurt's stomach. All good clean fun.

The wound took several weeks to heal. A nurse had to change the dressing each day and to pack the wound so that it healed upwards. I now have a scar of about 1". It looks very impressive so I'm told. I had hoped that it would make me more attractive to women, but sadly not. A mug of cocoa has been my only "hot" companion at bedtime. But then I'm English. Such things are to be expected. I'm sure that if I had come from Kentucky I would have had more success.

Anyway, good luck if you do decide to go back there.

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