The Story

Do you have a conversation topic that doesn't seem to fit any of the other conversations? Here is where we discuss ANYTHING about Joseph Campbell, comparative mythology, and more!

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Post by Clemsy » Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:55 pm

In response to Rom's post on the preceding page HERE.
"I need a story I can believe, but is it true? Probably not. The real truth lies in structures like my thalmus and hypothalmus, and my amygdala, and I have no conscious access to those no matter how much I introspect."
If we are evolved to problem solve through story, then how much more "truth" is required?

There's truth in paper and ink. The story is no less true than the media it requires.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas
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Post by romansh » Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:33 pm

Clemsy wrote: If we are evolved to problem solve through story, then how much more "truth" is required?
Will any old story do?
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
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Post by Cindy B. » Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:48 pm

If it's a meaningful story for you, why not?

As Jung suggested, "Trust that which gives you meaning and accept it as your guide." Always liked this one. :)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung
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Post by romansh » Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:00 pm

Cindy B. wrote:If it's a meaningful story for you, why not?
So it is not any old story - it has to be one that is meaningful to you.
Essentially it agrees with my story teller:
  1. ... come up with a story that seems to make sense, and it satisfies me. I need a story I can believe, but is it true?
I know this is heresy, but why should this be enough?
While my beach story I would not classify it as a lie, is it the truth? Certainly not the whole truth, and is it error free? I somehow doubt it. My story is a useful vehicle.

Incidently the opening line of the book there is a quote:
These subliminal aspects of everything that happen to us may seem to play very little part in our daily lives. But they are the almost invisible roots of our conscious thoughts.
You'll never guess who was the author of the quote ;)
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Post by Clemsy » Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:06 pm

I know this is heresy, but why should this be enough?
The question isn't heresy, Rom. There can only be heresy where there's dogma. :-)

As for an answer, what more would you want? The "true" story resonates deeply. Its truth is palpable. It's intuitive, and intuition isn't mystical. It's quite organic. It's your deeper self, beneath consciousness, talking to you. ...Seems to speak to Jung's quote, doesn't it?

So no... it's not just any old story. Any old story won't ring you like a bell.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas
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Post by romansh » Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:19 pm

Clemsy wrote:
I know this is heresy, but why should this be enough?
The question isn't heresy, Rom. There can only be heresy where there's dogma. :-)

As for an answer, what more would you want? The "true" story resonates deeply. Its truth is palpable. It's intuitive, and intuition isn't mystical. It's quite organic. It's your deeper self, beneath consciousness, talking to you. ...Seems to speak to Jung's quote, doesn't it?

So no... it's not just any old story. Any old story won't ring you like a bell.
But the protagonist of my story is doubtful of 'true' stories.

Now we can have the true Scotsman of true stories.
Being doubtful of true stories rings for me Clemsy.
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Post by JamesN. » Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:20 pm

romansh wrote:
Cindy B. wrote:If it's a meaningful story for you, why not?
So it is not any old story - it has to be one that is meaningful to you.
Essentially it agrees with my story teller:
  1. ... come up with a story that seems to make sense, and it satisfies me. I need a story I can believe, but is it true?
I know this is heresy, but why should this be enough?
While my beach story I would not classify it as a lie, is it the truth? Certainly not the whole truth, and is it error free? I somehow doubt it. My story is a useful vehicle.
And again Cindy:
As Jung suggested, "Trust that which gives you meaning and accept it as your guide." Always liked this one.
My apologies for such a late reply here. I am preparing another response which I will get into later; but for now I will offer these thoughts. " Meaning and realization " as part of a ( process ) are the " key drivers " for our questions in addressing this issue I think. And the type of question may be related to a particular life stage. In the Diane Osbon ( Companion ) book on Campbell she refers to this statement:
" Jung speaks of the curve of a lifetime being divided in half: the first half is the time of relationships, and the second half is the time of finding the sense of life within; or as the Hindus say, " following the Marga "-the path, the footsteps of the human experience you've had-to your own inward life. And then total disengagement. Going through the last passage without anxiety, without fear. ( You go to your death singing. ) "


I will submit another Jung quote from there that seems to also point in this direction:
" In the last analysis, every life is the realization of a whole, that is, of a self, for which reason this realization can be called ' indiviuation. ' All life is bound to individual carriers who realize this, and it is simply inconceivable without them. But every carrier is charged with an individual destiny and destination, and the realization of this alone makes sense of life ".
And as Clemsy refers:
As for an answer, what more would you want? The "true" story resonates deeply. Its truth is palpable. It's intuitive, and intuition isn't mystical. It's quite organic. It's your deeper self, beneath consciousness, talking to you. ...Seems to speak to Jung's quote, doesn't it?

So no... it's not just any old story. Any old story won't ring you like a bell.

This to me seems to speak to this element of process in the discovery our own unique and individual story through the assimilation of these other dynamics; and what resonates within our own being as a " reflection " of this internal truth of our own personal identity or authentic self.
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Post by Clemsy » Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:30 pm

Being doubtful of true stories rings for me Clemsy.
Hmmm. If the protagonist doubts his own story, isn't that a true story?

You are quite aware, Rom, that I have a definite affinity for paradox. 8)
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas
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Post by romansh » Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:33 pm

Clemsy wrote:
Being doubtful of true stories rings for me Clemsy.
Hmmm. If the protagonist doubts his own story, isn't that a true story?

You are quite aware, Rom, that I have a definite affinity for paradox. 8)
And I for not being sure. ;)

At least apparently.
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Post by Nermin » Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:41 am

romansh wrote:

Mystery - an unknown with an answer
Mystical - an unknown with no answer
Beautiful, Romansh :)

Yet, I think that probably some human perception is required to make a story.

Namely, a story has to reflect a human perception about how certain events
are following one another. And there seems to be this unknown element in
most human perception.

Can-we perceive life as a science laboratory?
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Post by JamesN. » Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:36 am

Sorry this subject took so long to get back to but I had to watch this movie first.

" The song " that started this search that I referred to that led me to Jurgen Habermas, Edmund Husserl and " Lifeworld " that ( Carmela ) posted was one of the " theme songs " of this movie; called: " Synecdoche New York ". This staggering movie portrayal of multiple themes woven together on such a massive scale and the related philosophical material has aided me by providing a vehicle to delve much deeper into this relationship of ( story ) as a tool for the exploration of meaning and how it is relevant to the life process of " The Hero's Journey ". ( Film critic Roger Ebert called the movie one of the best films of the decade when it was released in 2009; and named it the 11th best film of all time overall. ):

The Song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IA_ubhYgjAc

Official Trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIizh6nYnTU

Storyline
Theater director Caden Cotard is mounting a new play. Fresh off of a successful production of Death of a Salesman, he has traded in the suburban blue-hairs and regional theater of Schenectady for the cultured audiences and bright footlights of Broadway. Armed with a MacArthur grant and determined to create a piece of brutal realism and honesty, something into which he can put his whole self, he gathers an ensemble cast into a warehouse in Manhattan's theater district. He directs them in a celebration of the mundane, instructing each to live out their constructed lives in a small mockup of the city outside. As the city inside the warehouse grows, Caden's own life veers wildly off the tracks. The shadow of his ex-wife Adele, a celebrated painter who left him years ago for Germany's art scene, sneers at him from every corner. Somewhere in Berlin, his daughter Olive is growing up under the questionable guidance of Adele's friend, Maria. He's helplessly driving his marriage to actress
( This is one of over 220 reviews that I thought summed up my impressions. )
Review synopsis:
A thought-provoking, challenging Kaufman experience., 20 December 2008

Author: commandercool88 from United States


syn⋅ec⋅do⋅che: a figure of speech in which a part is used for the whole or the whole for a part, the special for the general or the general for the special 'Synecdoche, New York' marks Charlie Kaufman's directorial debut. A monumental event on its own right. It is a maddening venture, a staggering project to face life's greatest of mysteries. Kaufman takes us on a soul-searching journey, one that he is taking every bit as much as we. It is a trip unlike any I have ever seen, and to say that I enjoyed it would be a very difficult thing to say. But 'Synecdoche' seems to be pointing towards something very profound, as undecipherable as it may appear. A flawed masterpiece, and a risk Kaufman seems willing to take.

There's nothing easy about 'Synecdoche', it is one of the most difficult films I've sat through. It's the sprawling story of one man's life, a tragic life. Philip Seymour Hoffman gives a harrowing performance as his character attempts to create a play of realism and honesty. And even as he dives head first into his work, his own life is in a perpetual state of free fall. A wife who leaves him, a daughter out of his life, relationships that crash and burn. His play, inside a warehouse where he has reconstructed New York City for people to live our their ordinary lives, becomes a fruitless and maddening descent into unhappiness and destruction.

What is 'Synecdoche' about? Is it one man's search for meaning in the midst of meaninglessness? That in order to appreciate the preciousness of life, we must accept the inherent chaos. Existence is what we make of it, and it is the choices we make that shape and define who we are and the lives we lead. Every choice brings with it a million different consequences, some seen and others that go unnoticed.

Kaufman tells us we are one in a world of many. We each play a starring role in the story of our life. People we meet every day, those we know and love. Never will we truly know them, their thoughts, or why they do what they do. And maybe it's not up to us to decipher what we will never understand. We must look inward, not to others, to find peace and insight.

If life is a play, the world is our stage. We only have this one shot, no second chances. We try to control our projectories, cast roles that need to be filled. In the end, what does it matter? Will the world miss us when we're gone? Life is what you make of it. 'Synecdoche, New York' dares to search for meaning, reconcile paradoxes to which there are no answers. But that doesn't keep Kaufman from giving it his best, as tedious and heart-wrenching as it may sometimes be.
( As a side note I will offer that the one element I found missing that to me Joseph Campbell focused on was that of ( Compassion and the joyful participaton in the sorrows of the world ). This understanding being utilized as a means of discovering a deeper and more meaningful dimension of the individual experience of ( living in the world ); and also the inevitable " Vale of Tears " that all human beings must face and grapple with in their personal encounter with the hard fact of seeing " the reality of life as it is " that he refers to so often in his work. )

More movie background:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0383028/

Other links on philosophical exploration:

Here is a very short clip of a 5 part series by the late Rick Roderick on Jurgen Habermas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prB238JY2eI

The whole lecture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itGtf3ZSkyQ

Roderick was a real " maverick " it seems; and had a devoted following. His life story of struggle from a wasteland of ignorance and poverty in his journey towards philosophy was as much a testament to the philosophers he taught as what they had to say. I was so deeply moved by the outpouring of his fan base and the lives he touched by his downhome accessible West Texas approach; and his fearless uncompromising style of interpretation that was so different from the enlightenment that so many academics have imprisoned and separated from the student's thirst and longing to understand. More on him:

http://larshjo.tihlde.org/roderick/

His lectures:

http://rickroderick.org/

( As a last addition again for those curious; a description from wikipedia of the term " Lifeworld ". ):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeworld

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Post by JamesN. » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:42 pm

OK; so now I want to address the subject of why I felt this material was important and what the connection is to the concept of " Story ".

When I first heard the song that Carmela posted it hit something deep inside that has been bothering me for a very long time. Namely that there is this growing awareness of the reality that as the planetary population increases there is also going to be an ever growing impact of a dehumanizing effect on the consciousness of the individual. The significance placed of the societal concerns overriding the individual identity in developing a navigational mechanism in guiding a person through the inevitable crisises of a lifetime and their sense of self is going ( IMHO ) to become more and more compromized and affected by the sense of this vastness of modern life and will create an increased feeling of " insignificance " within their personal sense of identity and self-esteem. If I were to apply a metaphor to express this understanding it would be the one used by Moyers and Campbell in ( POW ) of the " Adrienne Thread and the Labyrinth " when they were discussing a persons ability to find their way out of their own confusion. ( The above material I feel directly confronts and identifys some of these concerns. And the use of shared " Stories " directly addresses the attempts of people to utilize and understand these issues and to address the problems in the experiences of their own lives; IMHO. ) Also as Clemsy has mentioned; and again should be emphasized here: " Stories are how we make sense of the world. "

Joseph Campbell's work along with that of Carl Jung; again ( IMHO ); addresses this issue by helping individuals to identify their own internal dynamics that drive their dilemmas and helps to supply them with the tools needed to harmonize these problems and gives them the ability to chart a more healthy psychological course towards a more fufilled sense of well being. ( The use of " Story " and the sense of connection provided with other human beings in this experience is of invaluable importance in the achievement of this process. )

So that in a nut shell is the main reason for this direction that I pursued on Clemsy's thread.
If I have wandered too far from the topic I offer my apologies and will be glad to start another thread if that is felt to be more appropiate; ( but I really think it belongs here ).

Namaste :)
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Post by ALOberhoulser » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:18 pm

Also as Clemsy has mentioned; and again should be emphasized here: " Stories are how we make sense of the world. "

Joseph Campbell's work along with that of Carl Jung; again ( IMHO ); addresses this issue by helping individuals to identify their own internal dynamics that drive their dilemmas and helps to supply them with the tools needed to harmonize these problems and gives them the ability to chart a more healthy psychological course towards a more fufilled sense of well being. ( The use of " Story " and the sense of connection provided with other human beings in this experience is of invaluable importance in the achievement of this process. )

So that in a nut shell is the main reason for this direction that I pursued on Clemsy's thread.
I've always said the story will come from the internal battle, at the cellular level & past that to neuron flashes, that story will cross all lines on a map... :?:
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Post by JamesN. » Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:25 pm

Al said:
I've always said the story will come from the internal battle, at the cellular level & past that to neuron flashes, that story will cross all lines on a map...


Since it's achievement I have always felt that the mapping of the " Human Genome " has been one of the most important and remarkable accomplishments in the history of mankind. And indeed Al your point about " Chi " also adds much to broaden the reflection of how multi-dimensional the human species presents itself. In many ways we may be at the beginning of a whole new era of discovery of just how deep and inter-related all of these facets reveal themselves. Jung and Freud as well as many others to be sure; gave us much to explore in the inner depths of the subconscious. And all of the many different areas or branches of the sciences as well as more philosophical, mental, spiritual, and other aesthetic disciplines only add to the endless possibilities to consider. But at the level you are suggesting as to which one might take the lead over the other; I would tend towards thinking in terms of how they all work together; kind of like a symphony with the " mental conductor " orchestrating or directing. And as to which is running the show; ( didn't Joe say something about the body and the conflict of the organs having a " say so " with all this as well? Perhaps that was a nod in the direction you mentioned. :? ) And as to the " Story " and it's ( author ) aspect; wouldn't the psyche play a role in this script? :wink:

Interesting question you evoke. Many things to contemplate here; no? :idea:
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Post by Roncooper » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:24 pm

I would like to say a few words about our white blood cells. These poor fellows typically live for only a few days and yet they save our lives on a daily basis. I wonder if they have any sense of the whole body, or whether they are athiests.

It is an interesting example of the relationship between the individual (cell) and the whole.

Ron
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