Hello Everyone,

First, let me say it is truly a delight to be interacting with you all about this topic. Thank you, Stephen, for this kind invite to chat with everyone about my MythBlast. Let’s get into it, shall we?

Indeed, one does not apply to be a mentor. It is a calling, for sure. However, I believe far more are called than answer the call. I think this is especially true in Western cultures. Numerous indigenous cultures in Africa and South America continue to practice a structured form of mentorship, which we often lack. However, as a society becomes more Westernized, and especially individualized, I believe we see less of it. In the United States, particularly since the Industrial Revolution, our “leisure” time for pursuing activities that are not related to either entertainment or capitalism or both, have dwindled further and further. I believe most people are open to the idea of mentoring someone else, if not for two key reasons. 1) They believe they don’t have the time and don’t want to commit to it. 2) They believe they really don’t have anything to offer. I am suggesting that 1) our willingness to mentor has far greater impact on someone than the content of what we might have to offer and 2) we seem to make time for the things we really believe to be important or desire to do.

I have given a bit of thought to your question about our ability to mentor without knowing it. I think the answer comes down to how we define the term “mentoring” or “mentor.” While we might give someone wise advice or helpful knowledge, which is great, I think the type of mentorship that is most transformational is intentional. It is recognized by both parties. It likely even has some sort of loose structure, even if that is as simple as a monthly coffee date. I know that I have considered individuals a mentor to me without them formally recognizing that role, but I also believe the relationship and thus “mentoring” would have been more powerful had they been able to commit and acknowledge that role. I am not saying that unconscious mentoring can’t or doesn’t happen or that it isn’t valuable. It is just not the ideal that I believe is most powerful and that our culture needs more of. It can easily come down to a question of semantics, but I long for mentors that are intentional about their guidance in my own journey.

The differentiation between a mentor and a teacher can easily become another issue of semantics. However, I would offer a few thoughts to consider. In many ways, I believe being a mentor is more about who you are in someone’s life than what you do for them. There was a process in different historical moments where a “master” would sit before a “class” with his (unfortunately for history, it was usually a “he”) back to the class and paint or sculpt a creative work. The apprentices or students would sit behind the master and create the exact same work, mimicking the master’s actions. There is something inherent to teaching that involves asking someone to either mimic something that has been previously demonstrated or to imitate a method that has been demonstrated. I recognize, as a teacher in higher education myself, this is greatly reductive, as ideally learning is about creating a sense of understanding in the student that goes far beyond mimicry. However, this type of learning is usually, at least initially, based on mimicry (often through the medium of memorization). In my opinion, mentoring is different from teaching, as what is “taught” is not done through activity. It is instead, as I’ve mentioned, more about who someone is — which may involve unspoken issues of character and wisdom. A teacher shows a student how to solve a problem. A mentor may very well only share their experience of how they once incorrectly tried to solve the same problem. This said, I had a number of “mentors” in my years of public schooling that were more effective at preparing me for life than some “teachers.” But I am grateful for the teachers as well. I needed to know the teacher’s lessons as well as the mentors. Again, this can easily become a matter of semantics, but the roles have been quite different in my experience. I think we as a culture have a great number of (both vocational and non-vocational) teachers (who are usually under-appreciated and certainly underpaid) but we don’t have enough mentors.

I look forward to interacting with you all on these ideas and others that you will undoubtedly bring to the table!

Dr. Bucher, can you recommend stories with female mentors?

Thank you,

Tracy Coffie

Atlanta

Greetings Dr. Bucher, and a most warm and hearty welcome and so glad you are here. Along with Stephen’s thoughtful opening suggestions you have started this conversation off with many things to consider.

First off this subject reminds me of the Senex/Crone Archetype which has many manifestations; some of which would be the “Mentor/Sage” or wisdom guide; but in more human context might be that of an “Elder figure” who passes on wisdom; but I was also reminded by your suggestion that the: “Wounded Healer”; could be another form it presents itself.

One of the most important set of examples of this archetype growing up was that of the: “Person behind child”; this was someone who represented some kind of relationship to the child that could give them a long range sense of themselves; that could take on obstacles without losing their sense of direction in accomplishing their goals. A relationship that told them: “Don’t give up; don’t quit; you can do this! A kind of: “can do” attitude that gives them a sense of self-worth and belief in themselves that they not only have value as individuals; but they also have something to offer to the world; a boon or perhaps something the world lacks that is their gift. (So when I first encountered Joseph’s work from a crisis I was experiencing this rung me like a bell!)

I was particularly moved by your suggestions that mentors are everyday people and are all around us if we can only have the eyes to recognize them; both as student; but more importantly as potential teachers. Your point about being a mentor; but being unsure if the qualities are there was especially helpful for as you pointed out the need now is so great in modern society that so many of our youth are left without the emotional support they so desperately need to find themselves. It is not just a skill that is taught; but: (that self-knowledge and psychological center that Joseph talks about that their inner hero is to exemplify); it’s an understanding there will be hurdles to overcome and inner dragons to battle and darkness to navigate; but there will always be the memory of their guide(s) that whispers to them; “yes you can”!

I also think these mentor relationship(s) may be either male or female; not just gender related; for how many males have had: mothers, aunts, and grandmothers as mentoring elderhood figures, as well as men; and these bonds that are formed from these deeply personal friendships in our lives have provided meaning, purpose, and insight where those of our own gender could not? But most of all I think if we are lucky we can have the privilege of having more than one mentor to help us; and maybe then by learning from others we too can become that person you suggested: “it’s who you are in someone’s life”; not just: “what you do”.

I so much enjoyed your post and look forward to hearing more of your offerings on this.   Namaste
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Traci; I have a suggested resource that might be helpful in your quest. Maureen B. Roberts has a wonderful Facebook discussion group called: “Psyche, Myth, and Archetype”. It’s a closed group set up specifically to explore and share meaningful material and experiences concerning these kinds of interests. It’s tremendously supportive for both female and male participants, and covers a huge range of topics focused on mythical and other related material for people to share. It’s got somewhere around 5,000 members so there is a rich ongoing conversation; (that is strictly monitored); so the usual social media behavior is always: warm, cordial, and inviting.

(Your category of interest comes up regularly concerning similar mythically related pursuits. I highly recommend this group because it is one of my favorites and I go there all the time.) Just a thought to consider if you’re interested.

What a wonderful question, Tracy! I am delighted to report that mythology, speculative fiction, and of course history all have stories of female mentors. But not nearly enough! Male mentors are far more common in our older stories, which is a shame. Here are a few to consider, however:

I immediately am reminded that it was Athena that disguised herself as Mentor when she appeared to Telemachus in The Odyssey. She is actually the one that encourages him to seek out his father.

One of others that comes to mind is from Judeo-Christian mythology — Naomi, the mother-in-law of Ruth.  There are several moments in the narrative that demonstrate Naomi’s role as a mentor. However, none more profound than how she counsels Ruth to approach Boaz.

Lysistrata was a mentor of sorts to the women that followed her lead. and lest we think that women can only mentor other women, I am reminded of Aphrodite, who could be argued was a mentor to Pygmalion. Great-Grandmothers also serve as mentors in a number of folk tales. The Princess and the Goblin by George MacDonald would be an example.

I am glad to see MANY more female mentors in modern narratives, but still not enough!

Stephen; thank you for bringing this up:

“All of us can point to elder tigers that have been formative in our lives. They are those who offered well-timed words of wisdom. They are those who introduced us to new food, food which we might have initially rejected, but later came to love. They are those who helped us see who we really were and returned to remind us when we began to lose sight of it. One of the unintended ironies of Campbell telling this story, of course, is that he has served as the elder tiger for so many. Scores of seekers have come to understand who they are a result of his words. I never got the opportunity to meet Joseph Campbell in person, though he has influenced me greatly. I have been fortunate enough to meet people who knew him, and who have dedicated themselves to seeing his work sustained. One of those men has invested in me over the past year. He has been that elder tiger — a Tiger King of sorts — more interested in my maturation than his own ego. He has seen things in me that I was unable to see in myself, and I am forever grateful. He knows who he is, and I am confident he will read this. I’ve tried to take every opportunity I can to let him know about my appreciation of his investment because we live in a world where people tend to hear plenty about what others dislike about them and far too little about what they do. It’s crucial that we honor our elder tigers, and that eventually we, too, take the time to guide younger cubs that we encounter to that quiet lake and invite them to see who they really are.”

The above was so movingly stated.
Unfortunately most of my Elder Tigers are gone; but I now have new ones to learn from.  But the memory of the old ones live on within me!

Thank you for that warm welcome, Jamesn. I am glad you brought up the Senex/Crone archetype as I blieve there is much to be gained from that exploration. Hillman’s book on the Senex and the Puer was instrumental in areas of my thinking. The Crone archetype, of course, is that bringer of wisdom we find so important in mentoring. I saw a film that has not been released in the U.S. yet called LUXOR. In the film, a woman travels out to the desert to visit a Crone in modern Egypt. Her experience with this mentor in the film is POWERFUL, thought it only lasts one night. I am reminded how someone can serve as a mentor to someone else, even if the time together is limited.

I deeply appreciated your words reflecting on my passion for imperfect mentors in our modern world. It is a key piece often missing in our society. I couldn’t agree more that mentors come in every expression of gender, including those free from that restraint. Some of the most impactful mentors in my life have been wise women that have walked the path beside me.

Yes, thank you, Stephen for bringing up my previous essay on The Tiger King. JCF’s own, Bob Walter, inspired that MythBlast. Bob has selflessly offered mentorship in my life, remaining a constant source of insight and wise counsel.

Thanks to all of you, and especially Tracy, for rising this question about female mentors. Dr. Maureen Murdock, author of The Heroine’s Journey, has been a mentor in my own life and served as the chair of my dissertation, guiding me through my own explorations of Campbell while always encouraging me to hold a feminine lens to his work. Maureen is one of many women that have journeyed with me as a mentor, offering wisdom and insights at moments I needed them most.

I wonder who you might identify as mentors in your own journey? What was it that they provided that meant the most to you? Did you ever take the time to express your appreciation to them? I believe that appreciation (however ritualistic you can make it) is an important part of the mentorship process and cycle.

John; you are most kind in your thoughtful response. Hillman’s: “Daimon” from the Soul’s Code I like a lot. The Male Tigers in my life; although some longer than others in time spent; were important in their influence and presence. Each had their gifts they bestowed; as did the privilege of the Crones. The Senex as guide when I think of him now takes on a different form than as a young boy; the man must also think differently than just as a warrior-hero role for induction into life; for I was also introduced to a more gentle and thoughtful perspective; as someone like Atticus Finch as well as magicians and noble Knight Errands. The world changes even though there are constants to be patterned after; and one of the most important things I learned from Joseph’s ideas was that one’s own interpretation of life must be developed as well. “This is the left-hand path of the maverick way”; the one who must often go into the forest without counsel to find their own path. The modern world may borrow from the old; but the new has it’s own realities that must be incorporated as well.

I came to Joseph’s work later than many and the influence of them all; both male and female was rekindled. The life experience of those among us we often never know much about; and I’m constantly reminded after Joseph’s influence that what I see and experience from others is only a part of what may actually lay hidden from view. Their heartache and suffering as well as my own may mirror parts of something of which I may be only partly aware; and though my own blind spots may be in the way; it was Joseph’s connection to Jung that helped to open a doorway or a window into a much deeper understanding of myself and those around me. We grow up in a culture that provides only partial instruction for what life may hold; and our trajectory may lead us down many paths; but it’s mystery; as Joseph suggests; may intervene and cause unforeseen circumstances to dictate something else of which we have no idea.

Most of my own life I had to learn to be my own hero; but I did not know of Campbell’s existence. I had already found a life path but that is only part of the task to be completed; one must then incorporate and face whatever difficulties that may lie ahead by taking this journey into deeper realms as the Sun-Chariot crosses over one’s life meridian toward old age; and part of that life journey was only beginning. Life crisis situations can take many forms; some of mine included great loss; including losing the family house and taking on yet more tasks; and a revisit from other former crisis may sometimes be included as I was to find out more than once. This particular one involved losing one’s berings; which Joseph calls the: “long season”; where a rebuild is in order. I was completely lost and for two years tried every religion or change of perspective I could think of. As Joseph said about religion: “these paths can often lead nowhere”; and one day walking the several miles back home from a church which held nothing for me but a brick wall in deeply depressed reflection; upon reaching home turned on the television to find Joseph Campbell talking to Bill Moyers and my world just stopped; “who was this person that could speak in a voice where everything suddenly made sense?”; and from then on everything changed. That was 1988; and my life has never been the same.

One of the great joys has been sharing this new world with those who have the same love for his work; and it continues to transform my life ever since. So in another sense you could say Joseph has become a mentor to me. And others I suspect may feel the same way. There is something he talks about where the calamities in ones life may actually be the defining moments; but it is only after looking back in later life this realization becomes apparent. This was one of the most important moments of my understanding of where it all started; and like the realization of: (” the Marga” or animal path back to it’s den) Joseph mentions; what appeared on the outside was not the true reflection of what happened on the inside. Every day I am more and more grateful for discovering Joseph Campbell; for in my mind his mentorship has saved my life from where it had begun so very long ago; and this appreciation will stay with me till my journey’s end. Everyone has a journey they are on; thank you for your kind thoughts regarding mine.

Hello John,

Thank you for your your wise and wonderful words, and also thank you for the questions:

“What was it that they provided that meant the most to you? Did you ever take the time to express your appreciation to them? I believe that appreciation (however ritualistic you can make it) is an important part of the mentorship process and cycle.”

“I wonder who you might identify as mentors in your own journey?” John, your question made me think, and reflect as to whom have I considered as my mentor, you mean real life mentor, one you had the good fortune of spending some time with.  I’d have to begin my answer with a question. Could you have held your mentor in the back of your brain, lived and followed their ways, with a very foggy sense of why you do what you do?

If yes, then for me, my mentor is my Uncle who came into our lives when we were in our teens, and whose ways, were so different from my father’s (his brother) and so unimaginably magnetic, that every thing about my Uncle just went deep into my skin. His wise words still ring in my ears, but more than that, were his noble deeds, that I had not seen in any other relative or friend, and those deeds left an indelible impression on my being.  A few years later, our families had a parting of ways, and with that my Uncle’s memories faded.  That’s what I thought, but did they really? No, I find most of my actions, in life have been so similar to my Uncle’s. His name was Atthur, (Arabic version of Arthur).

Campbell writes, “doom breaks loose from the shell of our very virtues”.  That would describe my Uncle’s last days, and as I reflect back, I find that unconsciously, I have followed in his footsteps, calling it my own journey. Much more to write and reflect on this topic.

“Did you ever take the time to express your appreciation to them? Unfortunately No, not then and not for many years, but about fourteen years ago, I visited Hyderabad India, and visited his grave, and expressed my gratitude.

“I believe that appreciation (however ritualistic you can make it) is an important part of the mentorship process and cycle.” While in India, my cousin gave me a tin box that belonged to him, and I do have a ritual. Every Friday, I place a candle on the tin box, and thank him for his love and his gentle ways that have guided me in my life.

Thank you.

Hello John,

Like Jamesn, Joseph Campbell is my number one mentor, a mentor whose books comfort me, guide me, give me courage to hang on.  I think Jamesn expressed it beautifully, and I quote him, “There is something he (JOE) talks about where the calamities in ones life may actually be the defining moments; but it is only after looking back in later life this realization becomes apparent. This was one of the most important moments of my understanding of where it all started; and like the realization of: (” the Marga” or animal path back to it’s den) Joseph mentions; what appeared on the outside was not the true reflection of what happened on the inside. Every day I am more and more grateful for discovering Joseph Campbell; for in my mind his mentorship has saved my life from where it had begun so very long ago; and this appreciation will stay with me till my journey’s end. ”

“We’re not on our journey to save the world but to save ourselves. But in doing that you save the world. The influence of a vital person vitalizes” (JC)

In China, September 10th, is set aside to commemorate educators, teachers and mentors. It’s recognized as an official holiday. As a culture, as a society, we should too set aside a day to commemorate our mentors, our guides, our teachers, just my view.

Jamesn, thank you for those insights and stories. I found them meaningful as they brought me joy.

Shaheda, I really resonated with your question – “Could you have held your mentor in the back of your brain, lived and followed their ways, with a very foggy sense of why you do what you do?”

I believe we absolutely can hold mentors in this way. This foggy sense of why we do what we do, in my opinion, speaks to the involvement of the unconscious. Some of the strongest convictions and experiences I’ve had began as and remain foggy in their origin.

I was delighted with the story of your uncle. He sounds like he was such an interesting man. I was also moved by the ritual you’ve practiced with your uncle’s tin box. Like you, I also keep momentos of the mentors that have influenced me.

You both mention the role that Campbell has played in your life, providing mentorship, even across time, space, and the here after. I am reminded of one of the most powerful lessons Campbell offered to me, as a mentor I never met in person. While he mentions the idea elsewhere, there is a wonderful interview that he gave to Parabola Magazine (Vol. 7 No. 1) where he talks about a number of different cultures where Shamans, Medicine Men, and other formal mentors are working with seekers and initiates. He mentions two key lessons these mentors embody for those individuals. The first involved learning to rest well. The second involved waking up. The balance of these two essential functions has become part of my daily, weekly, and yearly mindful practice. Resting well has never been more important in our fast moving culture. However, waking up (a motif that consistently appears throughout myth and fairytale) is life changing. In many ways, Campbell was responsible for my “waking up” but I’ve never forgotten that part of his “mentorship” was also to “rest well.” Are there lessons that have become essential to your life practice that originated with Campbell’s “mentorship”?

Thank you, John for the female mentors!  I was not familiar with George MacDonald’s work – and am looking forward to diving into it during the upcoming winter.  Delighted.  Thanks again.

Hello John,

Oh so many thanks for your answers on mentors, teachers, and in-person meeting with the mentors.

“(Joe Campbell) He mentions two key lessons these mentors embody for those individuals. The first involved learning to rest well. The second involved waking up. The balance of these two essential functions has become part of my daily, weekly, and yearly mindful practice. Resting well has never been more important in our fast moving culture. However, waking up (a motif that consistently appears throughout myth and fairytale) is life changing. In many ways, Campbell was responsible for my “waking up” but I’ve never forgotten that part of his “mentorship” was also to “rest well.” ”

I am ever so grateful to you for sharing these two key lessons. I had not come across them, although I know I needed them most, especially, the “waking part’. Now I shall  incorporate them into my life.  Perhaps, keep a journal to monitor my progress through these lessons.

“Are there lessons that have become essential to your life practice that originated with Campbell’s “mentorship”?

Yes, absolutely.

1) Living authentically or at least trying to.

2) Looking at life through a mythic lens. (I am not sure if this is a lesson or just a shift in perspective)

3) Looking at the sky, and enjoying the sunset, the sunrise, the stars, the moon, and the rainbows,  like I never did before.

4) Keeping a dream journal, remembering and honoring my dreams.

5) Having a sacred space, and spending at least one hour a day in my space. (I must admit, I have missed a few days or many days, lately)

6) Trying to dance, or incorporating it in my life. Something that had never been a part of me.  Thank you Joe, Jean and Nancy for opening another beautiful door.

Hello, John, and thank you for your Mythblast and answering our questions.

In Stephen’s post/question of November 18, 2020, # 4277, he tells of his experiences as a teacher and of how teachers work with groups more perhaps than 1-1 relationships. I am wondering about (in our contemporary times and aside from fiction/fantasy here:  1) how many teachers who teach classes (larger groups) have also found that often one student (or two perhaps) in particular choose that teacher to be a mentor (and that when that call is answered)  2) what might be the/some difference(s) then of the classroom experience (teaching of larger #’s at one time) and the mentoring 1-1 process (aside from highly individualized attention) within the experience of the same classroom ?  I am also wondering 3) what might certain or special reciprocal qualities be that might make, say 1 out of 28-125 students (big as a lecture hall, perhaps) somehow call to that teacher as a mentor, and 4) when one who is already a teacher is called to be a mentor say regularly of a certain subject matter how often you may have heard that it was a particular student who called (each time?) or a less particular or more general calling (as in offering regular classes)? and if the student does “call” somehow unconsciously to the teacher/mentor in more personal situations than classes.  There is that old mystical saying that when a student is ready the teacher appears. Perhaps sometimes in classrooms the one who calls out (perhaps silently) to the teacher to be his/her mentor is an individual who has a great respect for the subject being taught and also somehow there is some key through the doorway to of the personalities, therefore  5) I am wondering how similar the mentor and one who is mentored might be at the get-go, from the very start and how often you know of stories in which they seemed opposites at first or to have some opposing qualities and then later find similarities.

I have had two professors who were mentors to me, and I have often felt that certain historical writers and poets and musicians were mentors of a sort as if I could feel some strong kinship and relationship with those deceased for a century or more. You really made me think about how students would model or mimic the teacher/mentor such as in works of art. I know that in each case where I have had a mentor I felt an immediate sense of admiration for that person or that historical personage/artist/writer/musician. Sometimes those that are historical personages seem to me in my own experience to act as the Muse. I know that at least in one case of myself as a young poet I did go about making it an exercise/study of mine to attempt to mimic a particular poet yet in the manner of also finding my own voice (mimicking some of the techniques and modus operandi but not so much copy or imitate per say) and others just less as when their music actually mentors my own life and my own experiences within my life. There are questions I have somewhere in this last paragraph I wrote here but at this time I cannot quite find the words for them and would have to think on that more.

I am also thinking, on the question on teachers and mentors, if it can perhaps be thought that all mentors are teachers but not all teachers are mentors.

6 and 7) The idea above also makes me wonder as perhaps a last question if negative examples can serve as a mentor? or mentoring experience or would mentor apply to only overall positive influences? Can a negative academic teacher so long as we learn from them be a valuable mentor?

Thank you so much.

P.S. I think my question #2 is related to Stephen’s question about the difference between a teacher and a mentor.

This is beautiful, Stephen (quoting you here): “That, for me, captures the essence of mentoring – sharing the accumulated wisdom of one’s life experience not out of duty, but love.”A teacher may love teaching and usually it is a paid job unless one is a volunteer, but then mentoring often involves going beyond the scheduled hours for which one receives monetary pay.

I really love how you captured the above thoughts, Stephen. I agree. Some of my most powerful mentoring relationships have been more personal and less formal. I really appreciate you bringing in this moment from The West Wing, a favorite show of mine as well. That story that Leo shares really does encapsulate mentorship in so many ways.

It reminds me of another story from the Jewish tradition about three village elders who went to visit a wise man who was passing through a nearby town. The elders spent the evening with the wise man — eating, chatting, and listening to his speak. Late in the evening when they were walking home, one of the elders apologized to the other two, saying,” Clearly, the wise man spent the entire evening just talking directly to me. I am sure that must have been a disappointment to you two.” One of the other elders stopped him, saying, “Certainly, you could see the wise man spent the entire evening, only speaking directly to me.” And finally, the third elder laughed at both men, stating, “Has your jealousy of me blinded you to the fact that the wise man only addressed me the entire evening?”

The story reminds me of how mentors are able to speak so directly to our souls, even when perhaps others feel their words were only and solely meant for them. I am sure, as a teacher, you have experienced this, Stephen. Many hear the same words, but they strike at one student or mentee (I like that word you mention) so much more powerfully than another.

Mary, these are wonderful questions and ideas to think about. Here are some brief initial thoughts about the individual items you raised.

1) I have experienced this exact thing, where among a large class of peers, I sought the teacher as a mentors. When I have been so bold, the teachers have answered that call, except for in one particular instance. The alchemical recipe must be there between mentor and mentee, but I think most often it occurs when the student requests the mentor’s wisdom as the initial step forward.

2) I think the magic between mentor and student can occur in any class, regardless of size. However, because of the often-personal nature of mentorship, my inclination is that it occurs more frequently in small groups. In a larger group, a student might take more responsibility for applying, expanding, and amplifying the mentor’s words, knowing direct access might be more challenging in that larger setting.

3) Reciprocal approaches that a mentor in a large setting might consider could be 1) Scheduling small group meetings, where the members in a group have more direct access to the mentor than they would in the larger setting. 2) Personalizing feedback to students when possible in the larger setting. 3) Offering an off-site gathering one evening for socializing with the mentor.

I have a friend whose work brought him great acclaim and so many individuals desired his mentorship that he simply couldn’t honor the requests or it would be all he did.He told me that one of the hardest lessons he had to learn was that whenever you gain something, you also lose something. He gained great popularity and acclaim for his work. However, he lost the ability to offer personal mentoring with most people that approached him. I think this is a balance that must be considered in this conversation as well.

4) The same friend I just mentioned also told me that when he was supposed to mentor someone, he just knew, whether they explicitly asked or not. I think there is much truth to this. When the right moment rises, you just know.

5) I love this question and am going to think more about it. I think you might be on to something here. I need to give it more thought.

6) I think the questions you pose here get back to this bifurcation (that often is gray and unclear) between teachers and mentors. I certainly have had negative experiences with teachers that taught me a great deal. I think we often learn from those that don’t have our best interests in mind. In my own thinking about mentors, I think a mentor, in the most ideal sense, is invested in their mentee. I think they hold that individual’s best interests in mind, so I think negative influences and examples would rarely fall into the category of “mentor” for me, thought they often fall into the realm of “teachers.”

Loving these insightful questions!

John, Stephen, Maryanne, Jamesn, and all, thank you ever so much for such an important topic, and I am enjoying it tremendously.

Stephen, you write, “True mentorship, it seems to me, is something less formal and more personal.”

Stephen, I am going back 15 -20 years, and  am reminded of the many hours of selfless, dedicated service you accorded at the   “ Joseph Campbell Mythology Group (JCMG)”  Our group gathered for Saturday night chats on JCMG.. We (Sabrina, Veronica, Tami, Janice, Doug, Michael,  and many others) came together to discuss, myths, folklore, Joe Campbell, James Hillman, dreams, and much else.

A typical JCMG evening: As I look back,  you as “Bodhi”, became the mentor and perhaps  teacher too.   Here the line between teacher and the mentor becomes blurred, because you developed a personal relationship with all of us, sharing your personal stories, your “wandering years”, your Joe Campbell years — not out of a sense of duty, but out of  love. We asked questions of you, “What does Joe mean by “being transparent to transcendent”, “I think Joe says, Holy Grail, is ‘Unconditional Love”, what do you think it is? “ “What’s your favorite Joe Campbell book? Or what does Joe think of  unconditional love?”  “ Let’s  talk about dreams.  Do you write your dreams?  And, by the way I had an amazing dream….and this is what I dreamt.”

Many hours you spent going over our dreams, asking us to describe the colors, the scene, dark or light,  what are your associations with this or that.  You were my mentor, in every respect of the term mentor. Did I thank you for the immense selfless devotion to your coaching and mentoring? Actually, not then, not 15 – 20 years ago, but lately, about two years, I did. I recognized your influence in mine and many of other lives. So, yes thank you, dear mentor.

And yes, this sentence captures it well, “essence of mentoring – sharing the accumulated wisdom of one’s life experience not out of duty, but love.” You did just that.

Shaheda

Hello John, Stephen, Maryanne, et al.,

Maryanne, as usual I loved reading your views on the topic.

You write, ” I am wondering how similar the mentor and one who is mentored might be at the get-go, from the very start and how often you know of stories in which they seemed opposites at first or to have some opposing qualities and then later find similarities.”

Your question, “how often you know of stories in which they seemed opposites at first or to have some opposing qualities and then later find similarities.” resonated with me, and I’ll have to tell a personal story about myself and my in-person mentor, my Uncle,  to explore opposing qualities. Even in opposing qualities, a story is told.

Story:  My Uncle Athur, my mentor, was an Indian Air Force Officer/Pilot   from 1940 –  late. 1970s. He chose not to leave India at the time of the Partition, in 1947, and settled in a lovely area in Hyderabad, which is near Bangalore, India.

My father, Safdar, (Athur’s brother) was a Junior Railway Officer in the Indian Railways of 1940s, a few years  before I was born, but at the time of the partition, he chose to leave Indian Railways, and was promptly transferred to the Pakistan Railways.  He became a Signals Officer in the Pakistan Railways of the  50s. His job involved tracking signals, and railway lines under scorching sun, sometimes in a trolley. The salary of the Railway Officers in a new country was just pittance. Therefore, there were a few perks in the way of   two small private saloons, which are a home on wheels that go wherever the Railway  lines go. One Saloon for the narrow-gauge and one for broad-gauge, both for my father’s exclusive use. Employees were also given a house, which is where my Uncle visited us.

It was his (mentor – Uncle’s) habit to set his suit case, and a few pieces of  clothing in one section of the house where they were well-guarded and safe. I was about 12 years old then, and spotted a very elegant perfume bottle among his belongings, and I took it upon myself to dab a little one morning, before heading out to school.  At school, I was met with lovely flattering compliments, “how lovely you smell”, “where did you get this scent?” “Oh can you get us some?” Oh the compliments kept coming.  Encouraged by the compliments, I made it my morning ritual to dab a bit the entire week. Mind you, all without my mentor’s knowledge and consent.

One day when I returned from school, my mentor-Uncle had flown back to India, and my mother presented me with that beautiful (still ¾ full) perfume bottle, saying, your Uncle left this for you.  He had not said a word about my clandestine activities. Relieved I took the bottle and used it well. Never had a chance to thank him, really.

The reason for this story is that Maryanne’s question, “how often you know of stories in which they seemed opposites at first or to have some opposing qualities and then later find similarities.”  lit a light bulb in my brain. That my in-person mentor and I were opposites. He was a very ethical, noble, kind and caring man, and I a younger 12 year old, had neither ethics, nor care, nor nobility in my heart.

On discussing this with Maryanne, last night, she brought in the idea of the  Maiden, the Mother, and the Crone, and James Hillman’s, senex and puer.

Shaheda

James,

I loved reading that you bring up the senex/crone archetype and the puer, and your thoughts on these, such powerful symbols for those still open to be “seekers” in life on their paths, who never stop being curious and never stop learning, and also one of my favorite Hillman books.

–Mary Ann

Mary; a quick thank you response to you, Shaheda, and John’s kind references to my earlier offerings. (My computer connection may sabotage me before I finish so I’ll attempt to describe some of my recent thoughts about these “awesome” posts this week. It’s been a real privilege to join in so I’ll try to add something worthy that compliments them.

More and more I keep coming back to the role archetypes play in the different influences the mentor makes in it’s appearance in our lives whether as teacher or mythical advisor. Whether as the (S)elf as the main regulating center of the entire psyche in it’s journey towards wholeness; or as the “ego/self/hero” as the “I” that we perceive with that interplays with: the shadow, persona, anima/animus systems; I think the mentor wears various costumes in influencing our lives. The “wounded-child or wounded-healer”; the Merlin/Crone advisor; the young male as Arthur seeking forth as self/initiator or maiden as young mother or Joan of Arc all represent various characters as vehicles of transformation to the individual lost in the woods with no direction of where to go. The mentor or teacher appears whether: as Obi Wan or Yoda or Gandalf or whatever other figure this form takes as a guide dispensing wisdom of the individual’s inner power they have not yet discovered. Joseph referred to what they may give us as not only a skill but more importantly a: “psychological center” and may also provide a inner commitment course to follow to come to this self-realization.

I also think there are different life stages these archetypes can make their appearance depending on what type of psychological crisis may be occurring; and the “thresholds” that must be crossed for achievement to take place. And whether there is a boon or a transformation to be brought back from the battle with the unconsciousness that must be addressed these mythical figures help to provide the necessary inner tools; (often in the form of some sort of symbol); that will help them in their heroic journey. Joseph talks about some of these forms such as: apotheosis, atonement, the sacred marriage, and the flight of the Promethean fire theft in his discussions with Bill Moyers in: “The Power of Myth” as these are motifs where many of these psychological transformations present themselves.

(One such story with the symbol as tool is the Navajo”: When the two came to their Father”; where a (feather); as a psychological device; is provided as something to hold on to so they won’t (crack-up) on their adventure. This is not the same as the sword; “Excalibur” lodged in the stone which young Arthur must pull out; so these devices and their application may vary. Two of my very favorites of this psychological transformation are Robin Williams’ roles; one as the mental health therapist; Sean Maguire; in: “Good Will Hunting”; and the other as high school English Teacher: John Keating in: “Dead Poet’s Society”. These are definitely mentors worthy of the term for what they exemplify in providing knowledge of these inner terrains that must be traveled; although for different reasons. One for inner healing; and one for the transformation of youth into adulthood.

But to me the chief questions that must be asked are:

“What do these figures and devices symbolize in relation to the individual’s unique quest; what is the mission? What does this adventure or journey symbolize where this figure is conjured forth whether by circumstance or from the unconscious?” (Whether as a real personal relationship; or as a symbolic realization what does this figure or crisis situation represent; what is it’s message?; (And we all need mentors whether we know it or not).

(Okay; so this seemed to work regarding my internet connection and I got it all in. I did a “system restore”; so maybe everything is back to normal; lol). This discussion has been a real thought provoking treat to participate in; so please keep it up!

Stephen: I really like the way you framed this; (especially the last paragraph); since I think much of our lives can revolve around coming to this realization path of an individual destiny and life course. And the process involved with an individual experience of this can take many forms; especially concerning the life momentum out of which they have come.

(Stephen): “This does ring true. Archetypal energies will not be ignored. In the absence of a society that has space and place where such energy is observed and honored, what form might this dynamic then take? (I think of some mighty strange helpers and guides who have emerged the past couple years, initiating many, including a few of my friends and relatives, into strange shadowy worlds.)

How, then, do we properly honor this archetype? What I take away from John’s essay is that we do so not just through being mentored, but when we step up to the plate, actively acknowledging, embracing, and giving life to the Mentor born of our own experience and life wisdom.”
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I think the part: “born of our own experience and life wisdom” speaks to what the mentor is trying to transfer to the individual. A sense of: not only developing self-responsibility for their own life; but that they have the possibility of creating their own model for finding and fulfilling their own destiny; and if the situation presents itself of passing that (received) self-knowledge on. Joseph talks about this very subject concerning life models in society on pages 109-110; in Michael Tom’s: “An Open Life:

Joseph:
“The hero-as-model is one thing we lack, so each one has to be his own hero and follow the path that’s no path. It’s a very interesting situation.”

Toms:
“Or at least the models we tend to use are very strange ones. I think of Hollywood stars…”

Joseph:
“Oh, now those models come flashing in front of us and they are heros of sorts. I think of the athletic hero is right there. But these are bizarre kinds of heros because they can’t really be incorporated into one’s life. Actors, personalities, politicians–they’re mostly heros in life contexts that are not of the people who admire them. That’s just a curious result of the fact that our society’s changing so fast. But I think they are heros–there’s just no doubt about it. I think Martin Luther King was a hero. Kennedy was a hero–both Kennedy’s. And certain athletes.”

Toms:
“They filled the model.”

Joseph:
“They filled the model. But they’re not doing much for us in the way of helping us build our own lives. There are very few models for life. I think the individual has to find his own model. I found mine.”

Toms:
“Isn’t it important to respect our own uniqueness?”

Joseph:
“I think that’s the most important of all. That’s why, as I said, you can’t really follow a guru. You can’t ask somebody to give The Reason, but you can find one for yourself; you decide what the meaning of your life is to be. People talk about the meaning of life–there are lots of meanings of different lives, and you must decide what you want your own to be.”

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Joseph talks about something on page 123; I think is extremely important concerning Jung’s ideas and developing his own independent way of interpreting something:

Joseph:
“You know for some people, “Jungian” is a nasty word, and it has been flung at me by certain reviewers as though to say, “Don’t bother with Joe Campbell; he’s a Jungian.” I’m not a Jungian! As far as interpreting myths Jung gives me the best clues I’ve got. But I’m much more interested in diffusion and relationships historically than Jung was, so that the Jungians think of  me as kind of a questionable person. I don’t use those formula words very often in my interpretation of myths, but Jung gives me the background from which to let the myth talk to me.

If I do have a guru of that sort, it would be Zimmer–the one who really gave me the courage to interpret myths out of what I knew of their common symbols. There’s always a risk there, but it’s the risk of your own personal adventure instead of gluing yourself to what someone else has found.”

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To me this is a central feature that should be held up as something to strive for; the ability to not only follow your own unique individual path; but to use your own point of view as a guide. Something that speaks to you out of your own center in your own voice; something that gives you a sense you are following your own: “North Star” as your guide. We all need models and the mentor I think helps the individual to find and develop their own idea of possibility of their own: “reason for being”.; or put another way: their own: “personal myth”. I think this is Joseph’s main theme around which many of the other aspects or dimensions constellate. (The hero is a major archetype that resonates in everyone; and Joseph stated this another way from the ancients: “It is in you, go and find it”.)

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One little addendum I just remembered that might be worth mentioning. As I was thinking about what I was going to post there was a movie playing in the background. As I turned around to see what it was I realized it was a new takeoff version of the classic: Don Quixote that had Adam Driver as Sancho Panza set in modern times; with a very different twist on the plot which would be very difficult to describe. But my point in bringing this up has to do with the emotional power this story conveys concerning this “crazy” old man that thinks he is a knight errand with his noble squire setting out to right wrongs by fighting villains and charging at windmills to rescue his lady fair – Dulcinea; (and what the hero and his adventure symbolizes toward modern life). For those unfamiliar with this story it transfers a deeply poignant understanding of life and the importance of the hero which struck me immediately as relevant to this topic. The hero as a model or an archetype in this story brings a sense of meaning towards many of the things worth living for in a way that has served as a model for centuries. This book use to be one of “the” most read on the planet next to the Bible years ago; but with today’s social media I am not so sure that would still be the case. At any rate I thought it relevant to this topic even though the context might seem a bit far fetched.
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(Thank you for your kind thoughts; there have been so many great points brought up in this discussion I’ll try to stop by and contribute something more later on.)