Ahhhh Steven, such rich questions.

First, allow me to address the subtext of your comments about the unique magic that riddles hold. You rightfully say, “It’s not like we have any experience with riddles in daily life.” I think this is EXACTLY why riddles delight us in such profound ways. The idea of a toll taker requiring us to solve a riddle in order to pass over a bridge would border on absurdity, taking us out of our common daily realm to somewhere else — or at least to a liminal space between reality and absurdity. Perhaps the map that riddles provide to this liminal space is what makes them kin to the family of myths, fairy tales, and folklore.

I think it’s also of interest that you said “riddles take me back.” I share that same experience. Not only am I taken back to a younger physical “self,” I am also taken back to a time when wordplay was important to me. I, too, loved books of riddles, as a child. Through the aging process, I have been drawn into other matters of concern, and often forget about the simple yet profound joys that clever words can bring. It’s not even a matter of simple enjoyment, there seems to be something deeply meaningful happening in my unconscious when I contend with a riddle. Perhaps it is working at a level I am not fully meant to provide articulation to. I often feel a sense of mystery under the surface of a riddle that feels connected to the mysteries I encounter in myth and fairy tales.

You ask about what riddles might have to do with the mythic imagination and I am thoroughly drawn into thinking about games, and their importance. Riddles could be considered a sort of game and psychologists are fairly unified in their opinion that games are important to our human development. I would be so bold as to suggest that the imaginal games we engage in as children are an expression of the mythic imagination. I would pretend to be Luke Skywalker when I was a young boy. I set out on adventures and battles with the dark side. I now look back and recognize that I was exploring the mythic in my imaginal games through the means most appropriate to my maturity at the time. (Full disclosure — you MIGHT sometimes still catch me dressed up in Star Wars attire at certain comic conventions.)

I’ve been thinking a great deal about game theory and re-reading Finite and Infinite Games by James P. Carse, which I consider a masterpiece, through a mythic lens.  I wonder if anyone else might have thoughts about the intersection between riddles, games, and myth? I believe this intersection is a pathway into Campbell’s exploration of  Finnegan’s Wake.

Hello John, it’s so nice to have you here among us. I’ll start off with something you just mentioned and see if I can pull something else into this discussion that I think may address both your question and what many others may be thinking about these days on a variety of issues; and that is “meaning”.

You asked:
“I wonder if anyone else might have thoughts about the intersection between riddles, games, and myth?”

And it just so happens I looked over at the page border and saw Joseph’s famous quote:
” I don’t think people are looking for the meaning of life as much as they are looking for the experience of being alive”

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A synchronistic moment for my answer perhaps, but I think very relevant none-the-less given the effect that Covid is having on society and that of the Christmas holidays swiftly approaching and politics stirring up everyone’s emotions. So; I want to dive a bit deeper into this subject and what might seem as a subjective approach, because this is a time of year emotions tend to run very high, and not only spiritual and mythic themes play into it; but personal interpretations and anxiety have a tendency to conjure up “crisis” points as well as: epiphanies, family gatherings, and over-stretched stomachs from eating too much.

So, I’ll start with a little story from last year’s holiday experiences, and how the same themes I experienced then resurfaced
the other night in a deep discussion about a tragedy on the news many are still talking about concerning the Oxford shooting. Wow, you might say, what in the world is he talking about? (That’s a hell of a leap from riddles, games, and myths!)

So last year I was deep in thought for a number of days about mythic themes, personal myths, Christmas stories, and what these things are attempting to communicate to us in reference to Joseph’s ideas. I remember Joseph use to set aside his birthday to celebrate his own personal myth with giving seminars with Sam Keen in helping others to connect and figure out what their own mythic stories were. And I thought to myself; “what if I just pay attention to what stories I run into during this time and see what they have to tell me about who I am.” (You know; what kinds of memories are conjured up and what kinds of moods they put me in and let these stories work on me.) Well three stories in particular we usually run into annually just nailed me to the wall because of the way I applied them, so, I’ll try and explain what I’m getting at.

Two had to with transformation, value systems, and personal history; and the third was a metaphor delivered by an upcoming movie commercial called: “The Man Who Killed Don Quixote”. Sounds strange I know, but bear with me because all three deal with some sort of deep psychological condition that separates them from reality. The first I will call: “Finding Scrooge”; because it had to do with 3 visitations; each delivering a message about his life that he must assimilate to save himself from living a life that had lost its’ meaning. The second one I will call: “Finding Clarence”; because it had to with a visitation of a second-class Angel trying to get his wings and charged with helping George Bailey from committing suicide by showing him who he really was instead of being a failure and the real beauty of the life he was living no matter how bad things seemed.

Now the third was a bit different because it involved a script writer who had made an earlier film about Don Quixote years ago and went back to the village where it was filmed to see if the character who was originally a cobbler and had played Quixote was still around. Well, it turns out he had been so psychologically immersed in the character he literally fell into a psychosis with the role; and became the character and saw this director as Sancho Panza. So; the adventure really starts there; but along the way the underlying themes begin to reveal themselves; and just like the book the viewer is informed about who they are underneath the perceived or normal landscape in which everything is playing out. (There is also a play within a play as the movie’s actual Director, Terry Guilliam; went through a whole series of obstacles which took 10 years to actually make the film. (A true quest within itself) But I digress.

So less than a week ago this horrific student tragedy occurred by a young student who had lost touch with reality; and whose parents were clueless. And the understanding that ties all of these dynamics together is this mythic landscape behind the scenes is not the same as the everyday one we inhabit; and how we as individuals interpret the life we are living is transformed. By that, what I’m attempting to illustrate is that when “myth” and landscape interact the psyche gets involved; and how we as individuals see reality and who we are; (as opposed to who we think we are); the contextual meaning of our lives; because of this experience becomes translated and transformed.

A rather clumsy attempt at description I know; but let me provide a couple of short clips that might help to smooth this out so I can make my point.

First George Bailey and Clarence explained in a reminiscence by Jimmy Stewart and Johnny Carson.

And then another one in a promo clip of the film about Don Quixote modernized.

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So, the world we are experiencing right now is going through horrendous change; yet the values being expressed are both mythical and timeless or universal in the messages they are delivering. And whether by poignant story, humorous insight, or deep tragedy these things connect us as human beings in ways we can barely understand on levels most of the time we can hardly even sense much less comprehend, and yet we become transformed. Just like Ebenezer Scrooge, George Bailey, or the mythical Don Quixote, although experience in itself may be the initial goal provides deep meaning along the way, like Carl Jung hints at about individuation. (In other words what we are experiencing is not about reaching a particular destination or accomplishing a mission in a larger sense, but both the rapture and experience of being alive which “bring” us the meaning we are seeking as we look back over it; (that is if we’ve been paying attention and doing our best; because in the end that’s what the myths are telling us to do for the most part anyway). Sorry for going on so much but you get the general idea I hope.

So, again my apologies if I’ve taken this topic too far away from James Joyce; but I think right now we need Joseph Campbell’s work more than ever. And these little stories were for me an example of just how profound his insights have been for me to see things in a different way. For in a time where the uncertainty of Covid, the unstable state of politics, global warming and climate change, or the individual psychological calamities that may lie waiting for some unknown trigger to take any one of us into unknown dimensions we must find our way out of; the breadcrumb trails he has left behind for us offer: hope, joy, and possibility to what could otherwise seem so very difficult to attain.

I’ll leave you with one more mystical tale for the holidays that may add a bit of cheer to end this with. It’s one you may already be familiar with; but I use to post it in Michael Lambert’s Christmas thread every year back on the old CoaHO; and I think symbolizes much of what these Forums represent looking forward. It’s a song about something very special that happened on Christmas Eve a long time ago. Merry Christmas to everyone as the holidays approach.

Again; so glad to have you here among us and thank you so much for the work you are doing with the Foundation. Merry Christmas

Thank you so much, James. What a rich and thoughtful response. The stories you’ve mentioned and ideas you posit all deeply resonate. To submit my own synchronicity, I actually watched It’s a Wonderful Life just last night, so it feels a bit like you were reading my diary! Ha!

One thing that struck me as I was reading your ideas was the connection back to games in the characters of Ebenezer Scrooge, George Bailey, and the mythical Don Quixote. Each of the characters is, of course, fictional. We could say that they perhaps embody an archetypal energy that has appeared in characters (and human beings) long before their creation. We could also say that the ritual we engage when we create characters and tell stories based on this archetypal energy is a bit of a game. When we play games, as many are prone to do around the Holiday season, we embody the archetypal energy of players. Depending on the complexity of the game, we may take on a wide variety of attributes and backstories, as is the case with role playing games (RPGs). When we watch or read characters like Ebenezer, George, and Don, we are observing a game play out where they are the players. We can hear myths and observe the game and we can embody and live out myths, which allow us to play the game. At least this is how I am thinking about it right now.

Circling back to Joyce and Campbell, Campbell clearly observed the mythic game Joyce was constructing through the use of riddles. What other game “pieces” do we see Campbell observing in Finnegan’s Wake? Ideas?

John, your response was most kind and deeply appreciated. And since we are at the deepest interaction level of human communication at a subliminal level when we play games, your post immediately struck me like a thunderbolt that “winning” is to me is of special importance. So let me introduce the idea of what winning means at an archetypal level, and all the different variations winning can have on the psyche; (especially when considering what “losing” can also mean), to whomever it effects; as either an “affect” of an archetypal image result; (we lost, or we won) and how the entire psyche interprets the results. Whole lives can be impacted by either. “But the goal of most games is usually to win.” So, we have a powerful archetypal force in “Play” that usually takes place between human beings.

Now if we take the idea of play and take it into a much deeper level where emotions rule; then again, we have endless possibilities because as Jung stated: (I can’t remember exactly where); “the mind is a curious thing”, and at the subconscious level it’s often difficult to tell exactly what kind of mischief gets stimulated by playing a game; depending on whether it’s with people or oneself. A child plays one way with the imagination; and adults often play other ways while assigning meaning to an outcome; (whether personal or abstract, emotional or detached), and now you’ve got psychic elements involved like the ego, shadow, anima/animus, and persona mask; and a whole system begins to move about while the game is in process; and then the end result produces an outcome that this system has to interpret.

Does this outcome produce something the individual is happy with, or does losing produce disappointment, both leaving a memory that can wind up in the landfill of the psyche; (that like Joseph mentioned can be conjured up by the Shadow from an emotional trigger in the form of something symbolic that the unconscious has buried, and the psyche has to process it before it delivers an emotional response. Sports are great for this kind of projection, but also serious emotional scars from a relationship trauma of some kind as well. My friend betrayed me, my team lost the championship, you want to play catch?, I’m going out to play – want to come? Let’s play that boardgame we use to as kids called Monopoly; how about checkers instead? Then there is that most important of games that of romance; (the game of courtship: “the game of love”; the dating game, the game that grabs you and will not let you rest until you have won. Or lost. The battle of the sexes where the ego gets involved and the heart is not necessarily in play.

And then there are the final results from the game of life; for after all life is a game, is it not? And we bring the meaning to whatever game we are playing. And like that wonderful line in: “The Dead Poet’s Society”; where high school English Teacher John Keating is talking about the meaning of Poetry and asks: “The powerful Play goes on; what will your verse be?” Or even a better revelation from Joseph Campbell.

Thank you again for your kindness; your input about games is a joy.

Hello,

Great MythBlast , Thank you !

I thoroughly enjoy Joyce , puerile and comedic as he is, especially the “naughty bits”.

I like the Sphinx riddle. The three legs of old age the stages of life. Birth life death, infancy middle then old age. The legs we stand on in old age.

The cane the walking stick the staff that symbolizes the unique journey of an individual life. It grows organically tempered by time place trauma success . Solidifies concretizes in old age informed by the choices we’ve made , lessons we’ve learned in life. The stick that aides us with our limp. It implies the trinity , the “Three quarks for Muster Mark! / Sure he hasn’t got much of a bark / And sure any he has it’s all beside the mark.”  , and begs the next step back to the quaternary for completion. The four sides of the classical mandala . The four levels of interpretation of scripture , the four levels of Pardes , the four levels of consciousness,etc. etc.

superpositioning of interpretations is grand ! Isn’t it ? The narrative of the quanta ! of mythic Light internal external eternal !

The Sphinx riddle begs one to look beyond the simple answer, add to it with ones own insight.

I like the four visible Sphinx legs showing in the header Art of the myth blast. A mirror image completed with a looking glass ? Implying six legs   alluding to the coach with six insides ?

Lots of fun to follow streams of consciousness when talking Joyce , riddles & Open ended answers that leave room for subjective interpretations!  Riddles bring back the Mystery to life … of life … To seek the answer is to confront the Mysterium tremendum et fascinans .

R³

ps

Stephen the building with the most stories ? Is of course our Fathers House within which are many mansions within which are many rooms within which are many stories  ! Each a unique story ! A strand of narrative string theory in a infinite woven tapestry Making up the One House !  May your mansion be full ! Yet alway remain open to more stories , more interpretations !!! As the strand of your life is comprised of all you’ve read of all you’ve written of all you’ve encountered of all you’ve been influenced by of all you’ve influenced so is the strand of Everyone woven into a mythic membrane … A shared dream perception of reality … While walking on Sandy Mount Strand… Oh those membranes those diaphanes !!!

I am enjoying the themes of riddles and wordplay, these past two weeks!
What fun! I visited forward other words and now return to these words!

Riddles are something, which I remember as a young child.

When I was little, my Dad a high school math teacher and retired certified VW mechanic,  would present riddles to my Mother and me.

These were the infamous riddles from The Hobbit, between Bilbo and Gollum.

Both my parents had read the book. But the riddles somehow were always fresh.

Dad was fascinated by them.
And it was fun to guess.
In fact, I have taken to heart that both my parents had the perfect balance, at least to me of the practical (as educators) but also the wonder (and the imaginal.)

Dad promised if one of his high school math class did their work during the week and were well behaved on Friday, he would read the Hobbit to them. And so he did!
And those grown students with children of their own never forgot that!

I love your response quote, John about “bringing back the mystery.” At times it feels vital and necessary. It evokes that numinous place of wonder, that seems to be a hidden soul in so many myths!

There was another quote from your essay, which resonated in my mind. But alas will have to copy and paste…lest I loose this train of thought!

Sometimes, I think that sense of mystery is what balances out the intellect…along with intuition, gut instinct, inner nature and common sense or grounding.
I’m not sure the mythic journeys completely do away with the intellect, but rather that the intellect is integrated into something more than itself alone? (Collected Unconscious? Universal Consciousness?)

That overall awareness or that something, which is unafraid to point to mystery or say “I don’t know?”

Or as you and others have  said “what one thought they knew, they did not know.” Sort of that humble  effect of the journey or perhaps the riddle too on the traveler.
And of course I’m not surprised that Campbell would leave Finnegans wake open without a complete solving…!

That leaves a “point beyond itself,” awareness…

Even, if as you said the riddles of old had higher stakes…and even the riddles of Gollum’s cave…the stake of not being eaten!

And it’s funny too, because Bilbo presents an ‘unfair’ question as well…something Gollum at first cannot possibly know until: Dot dot dot

Bilbo manages to override the riddle game…sort of. The trickster element?

But he’s at his wits end.

And I had another tangent since you mention Star Wars (yes may the Force be with All!)

But Capt Kirk and the simulated game, which never can be won…

So yes Star Trek (switching gears.)
But Kirk in the new Star Trek (with nods to Wrath of Khan etc) again overrides a game (speaking of games and riddles) but this game was never intended to be solved because it was a test of human psyche set up by Spock.

But wow how Kirk becomes the trickster! (As well as infamous prime directive breaker.) So he overrides the game. Very curious to quote Spock. Though Spock was not pleased.

It is all fascinating!

Okay, so there is a trick with Bilbo’s egg riddle. Yes, that’s the answer an egg.

“A box without hinges or lid inside a golden treasure is hid.”

If approached with wonder and imagination, this is understood.

If approached with intellect alone, the “fallacies” or “details” become more important than the rest: 1. An egg is not a box…it’s round an oval to be precise.
2.not everyone likes eggs (but that’s subjective as far as “golden treasure.)

3. The yolk is really yellow or orange.

But alas! That becomes the realm of “concrete,” perception.

So the mystery of the riddle and the play of the game is set aside for the details.

A box in this case simply means “container,” or that “which is contained.” Besides, who is to say there are not round boxes or “egg boxes”?

The Russian dolls? And Chinese eggs within eggs?

So this is why it seems the intellect needs a little balance from the imagination before it becomes so sure of itself, it misses the experience and mystery entirely! Or even the resolution if there is one needed.

The wonder to me and the challenge of the riddle leaves another door open to the possible.

And maybe another re-connection with the transcendent.

Thanks John for this wonderful muse upon riddles or this riddling muse upon wonder!

Oh Sunbug; thank you so much for the way you opened this out for now we can start to explore the world of the “Trickster God”; the world of Fairytales and magic and solving riddles that refer to the psyche’s ability to dance back and forth between worlds. The Joker, (the Court Jester who always toed the line between humor and poking fun at egos but was tolerated because he served an important function lest things get out of hand). Indeed, Desiderius Erasmus wrote one of the most important literary works of European literature called: “In Praise of Folly”; which was a very short book about a Jester-like figure full of political dynamite because it tread the very fragile line between “church and state” with humor; (otherwise known then as the Catholic Church and the Right of Kings); and you could lose your head along the way by poking fun at either. He managed both with this book later opening the door to debates with Luther on what constitutes; “Free Will”.

The Tricksters realm of Clowns and riddles contains all sorts of doorways into man’s inner world. “Sanity” itself often looks for answers here as well from childhood tales of: Aesop’s Fables, Mother Goose, Hans Christian Anderson, or Brother’s Grimm to the final Dark “Exit” Gate; And we all use Guardian spirits to help guide us through our own inner sanctuaries to the light world of what we call “reality”; (or: “aren’t they really the same thing?” sometimes as Shakespeare often reminds us throughout his many plays and sometimes “conjures” up: “The Poet” as well. (But why do we always want to play?) I think is an interesting question as well.

(Oh; and don’t we love to dream and play with the characters we meet along the way). Speaking of: “Tolkien, and “Lord of the Rings” here is a beautiful link that was shared with us back in the older CoaHO Forums years ago. But be forewarned about entering this incredible multi-layered world; although being known as a “Tolkien” reference resource; it’s magic spell will pull you into it with some people being lost for days at time; some even much longer than that. And like Alice’s rabbit hole, looking glass, or Dorothy’s: “Magic Red Slippers” from the: Land of Oz; you may not want to return, but you’ve been through an ordeal to bring back the Boon of adulthood. Star Wars has this same type of realization too; of atonement with the father, with Luke rescuing his father from the dark side but also himself as well. These tales as children teach us valuable lessons that we must learn to incorporate further down the road; (but we must all return sometime from the world of enchantment and make-believe to the grownup world of responsibilities and nightmares that must be faced, and dealt with, and learned from; and then maybe we have brought something worthwhile back to share with others as we continue on to our journeys’ end).

Appreciate your kind words James.
Tricksters are fun for sure! Isn’t there a cross over into “holy fool?” Seems like Joseph Campbell mentioned that once or perhaps I gleaned it from somewhere else.
“In Praise of Folly,” very interesting!
And I’m familiar with jester figures (have danced a few!)

As for Tolkien ah yes! Not all who wander are lost! And I have delved deeper into some of that background before: Lays of Beleriand and have slipped into a few pages of the Silmarillion, which fascinates me with its Song Creation Tale. Music and Myth interwoven.
Also fascinating is Tolkien’s claim in one article (wish I could remember) that he felt part of those stories were written through him. That’s psyche deep for sure! Tolkien insisted not allegory, but more of an “imagined,” history. So back to imagination again.
You ask about the desire to play James…sometimes I wonder if it is a searching for re-connection with something lost? Or a larger part of the human spirit? Maybe the difference between “play,” being a “trivial pursuit,” or a “joyous one.”
The latter, I feel might open more doors?

And there are many realms of “play.”John mentions “comic con,” and there are “Ren Faires,” too.

Since you mentioned Shakespeare: to play, a play, players on the stage?

Some of the perceptions on the theme of this month, also mention a balance and how riddles and word play keep one from taking themselves too seriously.
Of course if you are in a dangerous riddle game with high stakes, you might disagree!
Or maybe it’s that old epitaph of when you loose something, sometimes you find it when you stop looking for it!
Though I’m not sure that is a proper riddle at all! (heh heh.)
But maybe, some part in the mind and psyche knows play is necessary for clarity as much as concentration.

Concentration is fine as long as it does not generate stress. Or maybe play means making space for the mind to imagine, so it can return to “this world” refreshed and renewed.

Einstein: “imagination encompasses the whole world.”
It occurs, that some great discoveries in the world have happened  by concentration. Yet other great discoveries have happened  spontaneously! (Sometimes almost by accident! Or synchronicity!)

And thank God, those discoverers had open, willing and ready minds to process these new discoveries!

Maybe play is just a reminder to keep ourselves open to wonder with eyes to the Horizon as we all sail together on spaceship earth.

But if you want a “rabbit hole,” then there is John Lennon: “Nothing is Real.” 🎶

Because after all music can be “played” too!

Thank you for the link to the podcast Stephen! I thoroughly enjoyed that!
It was lovely to hear Joseph Campbell read that excerpt. And I’m still smiling!
Was laughing too!

Thank you!

I think the Ulysses excerpt was provided by Robert. But Thank you Robert for that as well! I enjoyed it very much too!

So one other question?

Would “Hink Pinks” and their ilk be considered as “semi-riddles?”

Hinky Pinky: What does one call a philosophers “walk?”

“A Campbell Amble.”

(of course a talk might be a ramble, but in all due respect I love those “rambles.” This is just in good fun. As I have great respect for Joe Campbell.)

Hink Pink: What does one call an “Irish Novelist and Poet’s fancy car?

“A Joyce Royce”

Hinky Pinky: What does one call a puzzling violin?

“A Riddle Fiddle”

Hinkity Pinky: What does one call a peculiar “Hobbit?”

“A Baffling Halfling”