Home › Forums › MythBlasts › How Many Steps in the Hero’s Journey?
- This topic has 14 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated 1 year ago by
Juan Manuel Otero Barrigón.
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April 20, 2020 at 3:37 am #2815
I wrote this MythBlast because it struck me that a lot of my writer and myth friends couldn’t see the forest for the trees when it came to the Hero’s Journey.
What do you think?
David Kudler
Editor, author, word addict -
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April 21, 2020 at 3:00 am #2842
This is a beautiful piece of writing, David, that coalesces so many thoughts on the subject I’ve had over the years, probably because I’ve fielded many of the same “certitudes” about the steps of Hero’s Journey. I can recall so often receiving manuscripts sent to JCF that first-time authors want to share that just feel, well, contrived – as if the author is checking off the boxes (“worked in the meeting-with-the-mentor: now I have to cross that threshold and cue up the brother battle”).
Which is just the opposite of what Campbell intended. He was setting up a procrustean bed into which every plot must fit, but observing what emerges naturally from a tale well told. But Joe’s genius, at lest from my perspective, is in seeing in this motif more than just a narrative device – not ” blueprint of a plot outline; it’s a description of psychological process, one each of us goes through every time we’re challenged and have to change and grow,” as you put it.
Definitely one of the finest explications of the Hero’s Journey I’ve read, David. Have you ever considered becoming an author?
(And right there I looked for my winking face emoticon … turns out this isn’t Facebook)
Stephen Gerringer
tie-dyed teller of tales -
April 21, 2020 at 3:25 am #2847
Lol. Turns out there’s one advantage to using your phone or iPad to follow the forums — quick access to emojis. 😉
Thanks, Stephen! Yeah, Campbell conceived of the Hero Journey as a protean process, not a linear series of landmarks. My experience watching and reading a lot of popular works that have hewn to the schema is that with many I feel as if I can hear the creator turn the pages of The Hero with a Thousand Faces as I’m watching or reading. Which, as you say, and as I was trying to suggest, seems to be missing the point.
And yes, I am talking about The Matrix, why do you ask? 😉😉😉
David Kudler
Editor, author, word addict -
April 28, 2020 at 2:17 pm #2964
Hi David,
I have read your writing before and it is nice to meet you. I like how you have accentuated/simplified the Hero’s Journey here into the three basic/main stages.
–Mary Ann
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June 6, 2020 at 11:28 pm #3278
It is a reduction to the basic core: birth, blessing, death and resurrection (“…out from the Dark Appears an Angel of Fire, to vanish in those flames again…”). Omittted are the borders and translators. Curious difference in perspectives from either side of the Atlantic! Where you are reducing the circle to a square, I’m adding the ‘missing pieces’ to get the wobbling story truly ’round’. I’ve already posting something alike here, but seen from the three basic strata of consiousness, the instinct is the simplest one, squareness fits its voice. The Heros Journey is the emotional level, causing havoc and bliss. Ruling science of our daily life is the language of reason. Do not explain emotions, and feelings does not fill hungry hearts.
Time is a reciprocal dimension: t'=t*√(1-V²/C²)
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June 8, 2020 at 7:18 pm #3294
True indeed, Mars – this is the trajectory of the Hero’s Journey reduced to its core – but that simple structure allows endless variations (all those “missing pieces”), which makes these motif so useful for writers.
Stephen Gerringer
tie-dyed teller of tales -
June 8, 2020 at 8:07 pm #3295
Maybe it not only a reduction alone, but also a ‘western’ (occidental viewpoint) to separate it four quarters. Four Cardinals, four classic Elements, four Seasons, four Dayquarters.
Other cultures count in three (the tropics) or six (eg the australian devision of seasons by the indigenous people). Everyday a ‘saint’ is revered somewhere. So, when is reduction done or what pieces are invisible? Writers (storytellers in general, in any art form) can and do take a chunk out of it to enhance it on their choosen stage. From such a stand one cannot omit missing pieces. They’re essential parts too.
Time is a reciprocal dimension: t'=t*√(1-V²/C²)
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June 25, 2020 at 1:30 am #3404
David
There is the rub .
When does a good Spontaneous journey and story of discovery digress into a staged Contrived narrative ???
How do we stop repeating and forge our own individuated path ??? With the knowledge that all journeys conform to the archetype ???
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June 26, 2020 at 10:49 pm #3422
Robert,
That is a fundamental question indeed. How else then but to tell the same archetypal story from the personal contemporain perspective? Reformatting the Heroins and Heros, Gods and Goddesses, Kings and Queens. The individual adventure is the next story to guide society. It is not the reader, it is the writer that matters.
Time is a reciprocal dimension: t'=t*√(1-V²/C²)
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June 27, 2020 at 12:33 am #3428
The personal contemporaneous perspective is a priori to the archetype …
The newly individuated Being creates the archetype to conform to …
The writer is secondary to this being … The being is Does … The writer writes of the being and doing …
________________________________________________________________________________
Space is reciprocal Time
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June 27, 2020 at 11:04 pm #3435
I prefer to keep things aground, having the archetype as a conductor to act in reality, hence the writer/teller/artist in the first place.
And space cannot be reciprocal time as relativism forbid or no universe could exist. Where concerning matter and space the relativism factor works in the denominator, in time it is in the numerator. We can travel with our bodies through space, but not through time, save casting off our personal physical appearances, and all the rest reducing it to such an archetypal essence. To believe, or not – to come forward again to express dearly hoped, or nought.
Time is a reciprocal dimension: t'=t*√(1-V²/C²)
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June 28, 2020 at 3:19 am #3438
For me The archetype is a abstract construct of the human mind create from reality but reality is a priori to it .
“Back in the 1800s, there was space and there was time. … But there was no notion that space and time were in any sense “the same thing”. But then along came Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity—and people started talking about “spacetime”, in which space and time are somehow facets of the same thing.”
For me space and time do represent an equivalence thereby becoming reciprocal.
From a narrative mythic perspective I like how Joyce expresses it through Stephen Dedalus in the Proteus chapter of Ulysses.
“Stephen closed his eyes to hear his boots crush crackling wrack and
shells. You are walking through it howsomever. I am, a stride at a time. A very short space of time through very short times of space. Five, six: the Nacheinander …”Lots of fun to contemplate the space time continuum from scientific and mythopoetic perspectives .
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July 10, 2020 at 10:36 pm #3518
Joyce, I have to get a copy of it, but somehow it feels just to distant (to loose from mine…) to read it in its original language, where a translation might go astray (…lost from its realm). Maybe first start with JC’s Key. Though, as an electronic engineer, priviledged to have been educated in relativity an quantum mechanics on a base level (uncompassible extrapolations), for me there is a distinct, academic framed, demythologised difference between space and matter, and time as counter. The observations and rational explanations are in contrast with for many the common and for me some personal experiences where the senses just fail. As if the dead are alive again. As said, with our physical bodies we can travel through space, but not through time. Time is reciprocal and only transparent without mass, without space. Without physical impairings, there are no limits. It is my personal challange to cast that in a story. First: the Key.
Time is a reciprocal dimension: t'=t*√(1-V²/C²)
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December 29, 2020 at 11:36 pm #4555
I thought I would add a comment to bump this up in the queue – and I changed the name of this thread to “How Many Steps in the Hero’s Journey” to draw more eyes. It’s a relevant topic more people need to see (which I think of every time I visit a webpage that declares there are exactly 17 (or 12, as per Chris Vogler) steps in the hero’s journey – but it tended to get lost under the title of the MythBlast (“Separation, Initiation, Return”).
Stephen Gerringer
tie-dyed teller of tales -
May 30, 2021 at 6:25 pm #5549
An illuminating writing.
Thanks David, I think it is extremely valuable not only for the conciseness and depth of the approach, but because it helps to return the look on the hero’s journey to its essence.
For some time now I have been particularly interested in the first stage (Separation) and its respective difficulties. In thinking about the obstacles, both internal and external, to answering the call. Specially those family, socially, or culturally imposed. It is something that has continually come up in my classes on myth.
I really enjoyed this reading.
Best regards
"If a man dwells on the past, then he robs the present. But if a man ignores the past, he may rob the future. The seeds of our destiny are nurtured by the roots of our past". Master Po
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- 2. Respect Others’ Opinions These are conversations, not conversions. “Conversation” comes from the Latin words con (“with”) and verso (“opposite”). We expect diverse opinions to be expressed in these forums, and welcome them – but just because you disagree with what someone has to say doesn’t mean they don’t get to say it.
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- 4. Respect This Space The Joseph Campbell Foundation, a US not-for-profit organization, offers this forum as part of our mission of continuing Mr. Campbell’s work of increasing the level of public awareness and public discourse with regards to comparative mythology.
- 5. Avoid Contemporary Politics Given the volatile nature of contemporary political discourse, we ask that members steer clear of candidates or current political controversies. Forum members come from across the political spectrum. There are other fora across the internet for discussing myth and politics.
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The Conversations of a Higher Order (COHO) consists of ten public forums loosely focused on a central theme. The forums are listed, with a brief description, on the COHO home page (each forum listed on that page also appears in the same order in the menu in the lefthand column – that menu stays with you as you move about the forums). This also shows who created the last post in each forum, and when.
When you visit a specific forum you will see the list of topics people have posted so far in that forum. Click on one to read that post and any replies. Feel free to add a reply if you have something to share, or just enjoy following the conversation. You can return to the COHO home page by clicking the "Home>Forums" breadcrumb at the top of the page – or move directly to a different forum by clicking on one of the listings from the forum menu in the lefthand column of the page.
If there’s anything you want to introduce – a question, an observation, or anything related to Campbell, myth, or one of his many related interests – create a topic in the forum you feel comes closest to including the subject you want to discuss. Most forums include in their description a link to a corresponding part of the website. For example, The Work of Joseph Campbell description has a link to all his published works: you can of course focus on a specific book or lecture, but also any topic related to the ideas arising out of his work is welcome in that forum.
When posting a new topic or a reply to an existing conversation, check the “Notify me of follow-up replies via email” box (conversations unfold at a leisurely pace: someone might need a few days to let what you write simmer in the back of their brain – this is how you find out someone has replied), and then click Submit. You can also click "Favorite" (top of the page on the right when reading forum threads) to be notified of all responses in a discussion.
Click on the Profile link under your user name in the upper left corner above the forum menu. Then select Edit and follow the prompts to upload an image file from your computer.
When you finish your post, before clicking the Submit button check the box at the bottom of your post that reads, “Notify me of follow-up replies via email.” You can also click on “Subscribe” (in the upper right corner of a thread) to follow the complete conversation (often a comment on someone else’s post might inspire a response from you).
We ask that when linking to web pages, please avoid posting the raw URL address in your text. Highlight the relevant text you'd like to link in your post, then select the link icon in your formatting bar above your post (immediately to the left of the picture icon, this looks like a diagonal paperclip). This opens a small field:
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To add an image to your post, click on the image icon in the menu at the top of your post (it's the icon on the far right):
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In the dimensions field, you only need enter the first number (240 is a good size for starters; if too small click the edit icon and increase that number). Then select OK.
Click on the name of the person you want to contact (under their avatar in a any of their posts). This link will take you to that member’s profile page. Then click on “Send a Message,” and compose.
If you witness or experience behavior that you feel is contrary to the letter or spirit of these guidelines, please report it rather than attacking other members. Do this by choosing the Report button (next to “Reply”) at the top of the post, and select a reason from the dropdown menu (Spam, Advertising, Harassment, or Inappropriate Content). The moderation team will be notified. Depending on the degree of bad behavior, further posts might require approval, or the user could be blocked from posting and even banned.
Visit the Contact the Foundation page, select Community and Social Media, and fill out the contact form.