Home › Forums › Awakening the Mythological Mind › Talking with filmmaker Patrick Takaya Solomon about “Finding Joe”
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jamesn..
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September 24, 2020 at 11:04 pm #4001
To help celebrate the 30th anniversary of the Joseph Campbell Foundation, Patrick Takaya Solomon, writer/director of the documentary Finding Joe (which explores Campbell’s observations on the Hero’s Journey motif in myth), has graciously consented to join us in JCF’s Conversations of a Higher Order this week (September 28 – October 4) to discuss the making of his film.
I’ll get this exchange started, but it will be your questions, thoughts, and comments that expand this beyond just another interview into a true “conversation of a higher order.” Once the discussion begins, please feel free to jump in and engage Patrick directly with your questions and comments.
(Please keep in mind that conversations on this platform do not move at the speed of social media, but unfold leisurely – so please do check the box that says “Notify me of follow-up replies via email” when you post to be alerted when Patrick responds (or click on “Favorite” at the top of this thread to follow the full conversation). Also, do not be surprised if your contribution inspires related comments and observations from other participants – that’s what makes it a conversation; no telling what unexpected treasures may arise from such side-discussions.)
Patrick, I understand you got your start shooting action sports films (snowboarding, motocross, skateboarding – I sense a theme!), and then built a solid, stable career directing commercials. Helming a full-length documentary about the ideas of a scholar and philosopher would appear to be one heck of a departure.
Three questions come to mind:
1) WHY? What was behind your decision – why did you feel this was a film that needed to be made?
The other two questions focus on the more practical aspects (especially for those of us lacking in firsthand experience as to how the film industry works):
2) How did you fund Finding Joe? Humanities grants? Investors?
3) What happened to your day job? I understand that writing, directing, and producing a feature-length documentary can eat one’s life. Were you able squeeze shooting commercials in between the filming and editing, or did your personal income take a hit?
More to come . . .
Stephen Gerringer
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September 27, 2020 at 5:06 pm #4004
Thanks so much for having me on this forum Stephen! The foundation has been so supportive of Finding Joe from the very beginning. I’m going to answer all of your questions in a very brief origin story. If anyone wants more details feel free to ask 😉
The origin story of Finding Joe actually started when I was a teenager. I was introduced to Campbell’s work by a teacher in high school and shortly thereafter the Bill Moyers interviews were first aired on PBS. When I heard the phrases “Follow your Bliss” and “Heroes Journey” I was hooked. I bought every book authored by Joe and devoured them. My decision to become a film maker was a direct result of my study of Joseph Campbell’s work. My bliss was film-making, so I followed it!
I was also into a lot of sports at that time, skateboarding and snowboarding and motocross etc. So naturally those were the subjects I filmed. As my career shooting commercials blossomed, I harbored this secret desire to make a film about Campbell’s work though I had no clue what it would look like or how I would get it made. I held onto this desire for more than a decade.
Then, as in most good stories, a crisis came along. An actual full blown, therapist approved mid-life crisis. Whatever you imagine a mid-life crisis to be multiply it by 10… horribly embarrassing. In the midst of this nightmare both of my parents passed away inside three weeks of each other. I’m not going to get into the details but the metaphor “lost in hell” sums up where I was pretty accurately.
Here I am in hell and over the course of about a month the desire to create a film about the work of Joseph Campbell bubbled to the surface and after about another month I became obsessed with the idea. In hindsight, I’ve no doubt that some part me knew that following this path would lead to salvation from the current hell I was experiencing. It’s important to note that my wife, who had just dealt with her husband’s mid-life crisis, was instrumental in the creation of the film. I think she saw the same value in its creation as I did.
So, I did what everyone told me not to do… I put my career on hold, I mortgaged my house to fund the film and set off on my forest adventure to create Finding Joe… what could possibly go wrong?
The creation of Finding Joe remains the pinnacle of my career. I still get emails and comments from people all over the world saying that the film changed their life in some way. My favorite still is a group of women who, after viewing the film, took turns breaking up with their boyfriends.
There was definitely some fall out from following my bliss. Financial fall out, which brings me to the film I am currently working on. It took almost three years to make Finding Joe and in that time I didn’t work. I lost my commercial accounts and my career took a pretty big blow. I think the lesson was that following ones bliss does not automatically equate to a paycheck but I wouldn’t change a thing.
As I toured the film around and did live Q & A’s there was always some joker who’d stand up and say “Hey, I’d really love to quit my job and become an artist but I need money. I need to pay rent and put my kids through college and put food on the table etc.” This comment was consistent and I always hated it but it was true. It got me thinking about money though. What is money? Why do we need it? At base money is just an idea, it’s symbolic thinking, it happens in your mind… and that’s freaking weird! So my current film “What is Money?” is an exploration of the psychology of money. It’s not about how markets or banking works rather it’s about our relationship with money. The goal is to explain to people WHY they behave the way they do with money and HOW to be better with this stuff!
So, that is past, present and future in a nut shell. I think I’ll wrap it up right here Stephen. Giant covid safe hugs to you all!!!
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September 28, 2020 at 7:10 am #4007
Welcome to the forums Patrick; so glad to have you here. I was so deeply moved by your personal story it reminded me of a couple of lines from the movie: “Dead Poets Society”; where Robin Williams played high school English teacher: John Keating and in these 2 scenes: 1) The Meaning of Poetry; he refers to life as a stage where: “The powerful play goes on and you may contribute a verse – What will your verse be?” And 2) where he tells his students: “We are all food for worms” and uses the Latin phrase: “Carpe Diem; or Seize the Day”; as a metaphor for their life choices and to make their lives extraordinary.
So my question refers to the term “Bliss”; and whether since you made this film do the people you talk to understand what goes with this journey? (I realize this may be subjective to the individual interpretation; but by that I mean Joseph said that this choice was a destiny call coming out of; as he put it: “from the push out of your own existence”. And often there was a misunderstanding which at one point out of frustration he mentioned: “Perhaps I should have said: (follow your blisters).” I say this because often I think people get the idea that it just means finding what you love to do; and don’t understand the pain and suffering that can often go with this life journey or adventure; and that the hero is a metaphor for what one must often undergo; not necessarily someone who wins a victory. I think this is a critical idea because it ties into everything else concerning the life that one must sometimes live that often gives it it’s greatest depth of meaning. (Tolkien’s: “Lord of the Rings”- trilogy would be one example for instance; with the character Samwise Gamgee in the: “Two Towers”; when he says to Frodo who is down-hearted and discouraged:
“I know. It’s all wrong. By rights we shouldn’t even be here. But we are. It’s like in the great stories, Mr. Frodo. The ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger, they were. And sometimes you didn’t want to know the end. Because how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened? But in the end, it’s only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer. Those were the stories that stayed with you. That meant something, even if you were too small to understand why. But I think, Mr. Frodo, I do understand. I know now. Folk in those stories had lots of chances of turning back, only they didn’t. They kept going. Because they were holding on to something. – (What’s that Sam?) “That there’s some good in this world, Mr. Frodo… and it’s worth fighting for.”
(Again Patrick; welcome here; and I’ll be looking forward to hearing you this week!
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September 28, 2020 at 9:00 am #4008
Hi Patrick
Thank you for sharing your story with us all!
Is there a particular scene in Finding Joe that you get the most questions or comments about?
(G’day to the Tied-dyed Teller of Tales)
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September 28, 2020 at 10:27 am #4009
Patrick,
I have been asked to do a 1 hour, 12 hour and 24 hour presentation of Joe Campbell’s work. I have a general idea about how to organize each of these. It’s the details that are bogging me down. The biggest is a description for consciousness vs. mind vs. soul. I know I’ll be asked to make a distinction. If I can’t, the rest of the presentation(s) will stall on this point. Can you offer any help with this dilemma? I have my own opinions, but don’t they’ll hold up to close scrutiny – Scott
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September 28, 2020 at 10:19 pm #4017
Lovely posts, All!
Just thought I’d share a reminder that discussion boards don’t move at the pace of social media; conversations unfold a touch more leisurely here. That’s why we’ve asked Patrick to participate over the course of a week, which gives people time to find the conversation, and Patrick time to do justice to questions and comments (he’ll respond when he has a break in his day).
In the meantime, sure wouldn’t mind if those who haven’t posted before also pop over to our Meet & Greet forum and say hello, perhaps sharing a little bit about yourself and/or how you discovered Joseph Campbell’s work. That both gives other users a chance to welcome you, and makes this forum appear a touch less static (actually, some unexpectedly profound, long-lasting discussions have been generated in that forum – might be worth your time to check a few of those out). Also feel free to take a look at the other forums here in COHO (especially the Conversation with a Thousand Faces forum, near the bottom of COHO’s main page, which is a catch-all category for whatever topics don’t seem to fit anywhere else – there are intriguing threads unspooling on dreams and journaling at the moment, and we’d love for everyone to weigh in on what Myths Everyone Should Know, and add whatever you think has been overlooked).
(And a cheery G’day right back at you, Antoinette! It’s been way too long; much as I’d love hanging out with you in the flesh – I’m waiting till they build a bridge from California to Australia, and then I can just drive across – bumping into you in cyberspace is better than no contact at all!)
Stephen Gerringer
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September 30, 2020 at 7:13 pm #4031
Scott,
Let me jump in the conversation and share a few thoughts about the difficulties in describing consciousness, mind and soul.You’re not alone. For centuries, maybe millennia, philosophers, theologians and all kind of thinkers have wrestle with the same problem. I suggest you first examine your own assumptions, conceptions and preconceptions about them. If you think that you do not have any, what it means is that they have become hidden. Find them and bring them to the surface.
I think there are two perspectives from which one can describe consciousness, mind and soul. One is as emergent phenomena. That is, they are biologically based. Matter is first. You can research the scientific literature supporting this assumption. The other assumption is that they are not emergent but fundamental. There is also literature in support of this assumption but not in the field of objective science.
My suggestion is not to mix the two perspectives to avoid confusion. They are both valid. I think Campbell understood both. Maybe he had a preference for one. It might be interesting to explore that.
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September 30, 2020 at 9:53 pm #4033
Thanks for your kind words @jamesn! Your question about bliss and blisters is great because it keeps coming up in my life as a filmmaker.
I think the definition of bliss has changed for me over the years. I certainly had a more romantic vision of what “following my bliss” meant at age 25 than I do now at age 53. Looking back though, my bliss was what kept me going despite my blisters.
As an example my son is 21 and an aspiring musician. A classic example of “following bliss”. However, he’s now realizing that actually making a living as a musician is much more difficult than he thought and he shares his doubts about being successful from time to time. He’s getting blisters. There’s a lot of recording, writing, fighting with bandmates… and now a pandemic so no live music. Music may be his bliss but how much is he willing to suffer the hard work and set backs (as occurs in any bliss following adventure) in order gain a measure of success?? How much is anyone willing to suffer blisters?
I see Campbells frustration at people who mis-interpreted the words “follow your bliss”. It’s easy to twist those words to justify pleasure seeking behavior. However, I still think it’s a great place to start. Whether interpreted as Campbell intended or not the phrase “follow your bliss” has the power to get someone started on a path, even if it’s the wrong path.
I’m not sure if that answered your question but that is what has been coming up for me around “follow your bliss”.
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September 30, 2020 at 9:58 pm #4034
Thanks for having me @Antoinette Smith!!
I get the most comments about the stories “Golden Buddha” and “Tiger and Lamb”. Everyone loves those kids.
my personal favorite part though is about death and re-birth. It’s a constant theme in my life and it never gets old and it never gets easier… lol 😉
Gratitude- Patrick
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September 30, 2020 at 10:13 pm #4035
Hi Scott
That is no small task you have taken on! Unfortunately, I don’t have a clear distinction for (or a clear definition of) consciousness, mind and soul. My hunch is that those three words are highly subjective and that whatever distinctions you make between them may have to come with some pretty solid qualifications and/or proofs… just a hunch.
I would defer to our hero in tie-dye, Stephen Gerringer. No doubt he can point you in the right direction regarding Campbell’s work.
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October 2, 2020 at 1:34 am #4044
Patrick; thank you so much for your thoughtful response which was most insightful. Yes; I think there are different manifestations of the bliss/journey that most people identify with that you mentioned; which I think lies at the root of what we’re discussing. Chris Vogler wrote something about this years ago which has to do with a kind of general script that many writers; (especially in Hollywood); are familar with that in your documentry Bob Walters addresses when he says that there are really only 3 basic stages of the journey: “seperation; initiation, and return”; but the confusion I think lies within the individual circumstances and what the requirements are for that person’s needs. In other words as you were pointing out your son may have one set of needs or requirements for the stage of life he is addressing; where as for an adult in mid or later life may have quite a different life crisis situation. (This is a problem that Joseph describes we all have to work out for ourselves within the context of our own lives because the older ways of interpreting a myth are out of date and no longer work and the individual is thrown back on themselves to find their own way.) And I think there is a social or cultural assumption that projects a kind of: “one size fits all”; where a scripted idea of the life process says: it has to follow a certain defined set of rules and steps in a certain order.
There is also the subject which is brought up about: “Archetypes”; which Deepak Chopra briefly mentions that I think is critical; (at least from a Jungian interpretation); that most people in the general public have little adequate understanding of which Joseph goes into greater detail in his more academic lecture series. By that I mean the psychological aspects that myth addresses as compared to the spiritual, religious,or more mythological aspects. (He calls this the 4 functions that myth serves.) In other words trying to describe to a 16 year old about: the Shadow, Ego, Persona, or Anima/Animus and what an Archetype is not the same as an adult trying to describe a mid-life crisis to his analysist or mental health professional or spiritual advisor. But understanding what a myth in the form of a “metaphor” is as opposed to a “literal” or concretized version of religion; much less learning how to read a symbol as such; I think lies at the heart of much of this chaotic turmoil modern society is up against. Or in other words telling an individual that a dark forest adventure path to: “follow their bliss in finding their own way” is a metaphor; not a set of concretized: “thou shalt” scripted commands. This Joseph calls following the left-hand path of the hero; as opposed to the right-hand path of the village compound. Here is a clip from one of Joseph’s lectures describing what I mean.
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October 2, 2020 at 6:41 am #4046
Hi Patrick, thank you so much for being here with us and sharing your story about your film-making and the bliss and the blisters. My favorite part of Finding Joe is the Golden Buddha story and also the Death and Rebirth, as that is a repetitive theme in my life also, almost as if at each turning of each decade there was a rebirth–and always, first the death. Big deaths, little deaths, what have you, they were there. My bliss is in story and ideas, in whatever way or form or shape they manifest. I too had my own mid-life crisis when I wondered what in the world was I doing at my job and where did all the time go? It was a good job in theory (the idea of ideas again!) but the circumstances there were not good in practice. After dealing with the work environment for 7 years, when I felt I could not take it anymore, my appendix decided to burst and due to surgery I could not sign my renewal contract for the following year. This was one situation in which something violent and terrible-seeming turned out to be the pivotal point of something good for a renewal, a rebirth, a leave/departure, then a return to home–inside myself. Now I am doing what I have always wanted to do–write, write, write; to simply be, to simply be in my writing, to write what I have always felt pulled or called to do yet had not made much time for. One of my favorite Campbell quotes is “The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are.” I first read it years ago and wish I would have thought more about that when I was younger before I let so many things that were not for me override who I was/am. Sometimes we hide the gold in our souls under a facade to make money, as you say. Your new film interests me very much and I look forward to seeing it. I can say too thank you for being who you are and making the film Finding Joe that touches and inspires so many people, myself included.
–Marianne
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October 2, 2020 at 6:47 am #4047
Thank you for this wonderful reminder, James when you wrote, “By that I mean the psychological aspects that myth addresses as compared to the spiritual, religious,or more mythological aspects. (He calls this the 4 functions that myth serves.) Somewhere in the audio lectures topic I posted about one of Campbell’s lectures describing those 4 functions–I love that, those 4 functions!
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October 2, 2020 at 7:28 pm #4050
Mary; your moving personal story illustrates Patrick’s themes extremely well! (I looked for your mention of the 4 functions to include them but alas could not find them); but I think these are definitely important points you raise concerning the individual’s continued experience of: “death and rebirth” on living an authentic life throughout their journey instead of just existing within society’s usual roles. To me this “is” the call to adventure; or put another way: “the individual’s response to it”; and the 4 functions that you mentioned Joseph described: the sociological; the cosmological; the metaphysical; and the psychological; are what myths as vehicles serve in helping to integrate and harmonize an individual through the inevitable hurdles they encounter of the various stages and crisis moments of their lives.
Stephen has an interesting thread about a little known work Joseph contributed to: “The Changing Images of Man”; titled: “A 5th function of Myth?”; and actually mentions a 6th and 7th in the “Works of Joseph Campbell” Forum and a link to the listing of it in the Foundation Catalogue if you or anyone is interested.
Saying this I should probably mention at this point that I was trying to stay within the topic of “Finding Joe” as a metaphor of the archetypal element of the “Hero Journey” by introducing Jung’s psychological themes which Joseph emphasized so strongly; and their relevance to this continuing symbol which resonates so consistently throughout the one great 1000 faces story of mankind. But since this is such a large topic I think you are absolutely right that these various features and areas that he also stressed should be included as well.
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October 2, 2020 at 8:25 pm #4051
I would also like to add what I think is a critically important addendum which Mary brought up that I think for many of us resonates quite strongly which has to do with what the individual defines as success. This particular individualized or personalized interpretation of the individual life story I think has enormous bearings within the “life-story” context; and often presents itself in the later-life moments of change of what I think James Hillman describes as the: (Diamond or Soul’s Code); which like a seed or destiny calling begins to surface if the individual has not answered it’s demands; especially concerning the life path that has previously been chosen. (As Joseph mentions in some of his other Jungian lectures: this is when the “Shadow” aspect begins to surface by knocking under the table demanding to be heard.)
This demanding voice of the psyche may also I think vary greatly depending on whether the marriage; career; or spiritual demands have not been met; or that one has simply not engaged with this deep hunger or echo of the inner life that has not been addressed. And most importantly as Joseph emphasizes; when the mid-life meridian begins to pass over from the noontime of youth into the later stages of life: “these symbols begin to change meaning” as well as context. A mid-life crisis is often a major call for a metamorphic transition into a new life; which I think Marianne’s post illustrated exceptionally well!
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October 3, 2020 at 12:11 am #4052
Hello Patrick,
Thank you so much for being here and sharing your story of finding your bliss. Very much like Maryanne, finding the golden Buddha, and death and resurrection are my fav themes. As Joe explains in his lecture in the above video, ‘when you experience incongruity, you move out of your circle, and follow the left-hand path’. A realm where there are no rules, or if there were, I was not aware of them. My road led to very much like what Joe describes, ‘perhaps not a respected life, but certainly an interesting one’. I am eagerly looking forward to your next film.
In the Power of Myth series (POM), Joe said, ” There is something magical about films. The person you are looking at is also somewhere else at the same time. That is a condition of the god. If a movie actor comes into the theater, everybody turns and looks at….He is the real hero of the occasion. He is on another plane. He is a multiple presence. What you are seeing on the screen really isn’t he, and yet the ‘he’ comes. Through the multiple forms, the form of forms out of which all of this comes is right there.”
And why do we need gods and heroes? “We need gods – Thor or Zeus or Krishna or Jesus or, well God – not so much to worship or sacrifice to, but because they satisfy our need – distinctive from that of all the other animals – to imagine a meaning, a sense to our lives, to satisfy our hunger to believe that the muck and chaos of daily existence does, after all, tend somewhere. It’s the origin of religion, and also of storytelling – or aren’t they both the same thing? As Voltaire said of God: if he did not exist, it would have been necessary to invent him.” (Neil Gaiman)
So, those of my friends who know me as a Joe Campbell-fan, and when they ask me to describe what ‘following a bliss’ really involves, I point them to Abraham Maslow’s Pyramid.
Joe’s view, as you and others well know, was that a mythically inspired person, does not care for the basic needs, food, water, shelter, safety, security, relationships, personal growth, esteem. Self actualization is this individual’s basic need. So, if you are to follow your bliss, remember that all the lower needs will have to drop out, and they do, as you follow the left hand path.
Death and Resurrection is the main theme in my journey too. I have accepted death, and am certain there will be a resurrection, if not in this life, then certainly after I have bid farewell to all here on this earth. I am constantly aided by my hero, Joe, who said, “Death and Resurrection come at the same time”.
Whether it’s the film actor, the director, the choreographer, the dancer, the poet, and artists such as yourself are communicating our myth today. Campbell tells us that ‘artists ……. have to understand mythology and humanity’ .
I like how you and Maryanne phrased it, “Sometimes we hide the gold in our souls under a facade to make money”
Again, thank you for sharing your stories, and listening to ours.
Shaheda
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October 3, 2020 at 12:34 am #4053
Hello Jameson,
Thank you very much for sharing this info, “Stephen has an interesting thread about a little known work Joseph contributed to: “The Changing Images of Man”; titled: “A 5th function of Myth?”; and actually mentions a 6th and 7th in the “Works of Joseph Campbell” Forum and a link to the listing of it in the Foundation Catalogue if you or anyone is interested.” I am, just did not know where to look for it.
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October 3, 2020 at 1:04 am #4054
Shaheda; Stephen may have more to add about this; but one of the things I found interesting was his discussion concerning “ritual”. But the other thing to keep in mind I think is there is still unpublished work Joseph left behind that part of the foundation’s mission is to publish as time goes forward; which Stephen may also have news of. I think he is working on one such project himself at the moment; but that’s all I know.
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October 3, 2020 at 4:47 am #4056
As I was reading again through some of these special posts I was reminded of when I first “found Joe” when I came across the 6 part series: “Joseph Campbell and The Power of Myth with Bill Moyers” in 1988 and how it affected me. I was experiencing an emotional and spiritual crisis that rocked my inner world to it’s very core; and one Sunday I came across the series being shown on Public Television and everything around me just stopped as if I were suspended in time!
I couldn’t believe what I was hearing; (“Who was this guy?”); and all of a sudden the things he was saying began to give me answers to many of my deepest questions of who I was; what I had been looking for; and why. He was saying things in a language I could understand and the world around me began to make sense in a way that it never had before. He connected the dots between complex issues, themes, and ideas that had been inaccessible and unreachable before; and I knew from that moment on I had been changed. Changed not as some kind of religious converison; but as a thinking and reasoning adult who no longer would be satisfied with literal religious ideology that pertained to the meaning of the living of my life; but that I now had some tools to find many of these answers for myself.
That was in 1988 and a new road had opened up for me. Books; films, lectures, and whatever I could find that had Joseph’s name on it I devoured; and then in 2006 I found the JCF website with it’s early version of CoaHO; and the journey got even deeper and wider and much more in depth with discussions pertaining to all kinds of subjects; some of which included the world of Jungian ideas and concepts that began to enter in to my understanding of Joseph’s themes. I began to unravel things within my personal life story that had been long buried deep in my past; and now the emotional alchemy of painful as well as positive life-altering change began to unfold; “and then the real work began”; not all of it pleasant! Over these last 30 some odd years I can only feel profound gratitude for the effect his ideas and work have had on my life; and looking back I would hate to imagine what my life would have been like without it.
For many of you who have had a dark night of the soul; one that speaks like: “The night is dark and I am far from home” – Where am I going?; Where is my lighthouse? What am I looking for and how do I get there?; and What is this longing I keep feeling and where are the answers to my questions? I think his ideas more than ever now have tremendous relevance; but I can only speak for the importance they have had for me. But if you have been deeply affected by Joseph’s work over the years I’m sure each of you reading this may have your own moment you remember of a special connection to his ideas that made an important difference in your life.
So I was thinking that in honor of this special event of this 30th Anniversary and Patrick’s wonderful film of: “Finding Joe” since it speaks so powerfully to these ideas; maybe along with some of your questions a few of you would feel like you would want to share some of your experiences such as: Patrick, Marianne, and Shaheda so movingly have? ( Just a thought to add to this discussion if anyone feels like it.)
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October 4, 2020 at 10:07 pm #4058
Hello Scott (aka scottrparent),
You write
The biggest is a description for consciousness vs. mind vs. soul. I know I’ll be asked to make a distinction. If I can’t, the rest of the presentation(s) will stall on this point.
As both Juan and Patrick point out, that’s a tall order indeed. Naturally these terms have to be part of the conversation, but you don’t need to be an expert – just provide some working definitions. Given these are presentations on Joseph Campbell’s work, you don’t need to lock down an ironclad description of each (which is about as likely as nailing one’s shadow to the wall), but just give a sense of how Campbell uses the terms.
Perhaps the best way to approach it is to acknowledge up front Juan’s observation: humankind’s greatest thinkers have been wrestling with these terms for thousands of years, yet they remain a bit blurry.
To illustrate that point, you might want to borrow this tidbit Joseph Campbell cites:
The story is told of a Confucian scholar who besought the twenty-eighth Buddhist patriarch, Bodhidharma, ‘to pacify his soul.’ Bodhidharma retorted, ‘Produce it and I will pacify it.’ The Confucian replied, ‘That is my trouble, I cannot find it.’ Bodhidharma said, ‘Your wish is granted.’ . . .”
Joseph Campbell
The Hero with a Thousand Faces, p. 142 (2008 edition)Part of the problem is that we are using mind to look for mind, using consciousness to define consciousness (sort of like trying to touch the tip of your right forefinger with your right forefinger, or bite your right eyetooth with your right eyetooth).
Campbell often uses consciousness in the sense of awareness – aka “waking consciousness,” or “ego-consciousness,” both terms he uses to represent the part of me that is aware of the world around me. This can include not just sensory objects, but thoughts, internal states – the part of me known to me.
Many people seem to think consciousness is the only thing there is: when we are awake, we are conscious, rational, self-acting – our default setting. But Campbell, like Jung and most other depth psychologists, contrasts consciousness with “the Unconscious” – which refers to those parts of our being that I’m not aware of, that which is unconscious to the waking me. He illustrates this at the simplest, physical level with the process of digestion: right now I am digesting my breakfast, but I have no idea how – it would take a blackboard filled with complex mathematical equations to represent the complex biochemical processes taking place within my belly and gut – and yet, it’s not something that is happening to me: I am the one doing the digesting.
Similarly, our total psyche is much larger than the conscious part of our being, which juts up above the threshold of consciousness like the tip of an iceberg, with the bulk of one’s being not visible, beneath the surface. The unconscious dynamics of the psyche often swamp rational, conscious processes (all you have to do to experience how this works is fall in love).
As for mind, that has multiple definitions. According to my American Heritage dictionary, the two most relevant definitions are
1. The human consciousness that originates in the brain and is manifested especially in thought, perception, emotion, will, memory, and imagination.
2. Intelligence; intellect
The second definition equates the mind with mental processes (indeed, the etymology of the English word “mind” can be traced back to the Indo-European base *men- [“think”], from which the Latin word for mind [mēns] is also derived, which is the source of “mental” in English).
Joseph Campbell uses the word “mind” mostly in the sense of the first definition. There is clearly an overlap with “consciousness,” but mind seems to suggest something more (emotion and memory, for example, as well as imagination, aren’t always conscious, though they do lurk in the background).
Soul appears in most mythological belief systems (e.g. ka and ba in ancient Egyptian mythology), and has sometimes been described as the life force of the individual, the incorporeal essence of one’s being. Personally, I rather like archetypal psychologist (and Campbell friend and colleague) James Hillman’s description of soul:
By soul I mean, first of all, a perspective rather than a substance, a viewpoint toward things rather than a thing itself. This perspective is reflective; it mediates events and makes differences between ourselves and everything that happens. Between us and events, between the doer and the deed, there is a reflective moment – and soul-making means differentiating this middle ground.
It’s as if [emphasis mine] consciousness rests upon a self-sustaining and imagining substrate – an inner place or deeper person or ongoing presence – that is simply there even when all our subjectivity, ego, and consciousness go into eclipse. Soul appears as a factor independent of the events in which we are immersed. Though I cannot identify soul with anything else, I also can never grasp it by itself apart from other things, perhaps because it is like a reflection in a flowing mirror, or like the moon which mediates only borrowed light. But just this peculiar and paradoxical intervening variable gives one the sense of having or being a soul. However intangible and undefinable it is, soul carries highest importance in hierarchies of human values, frequently identified with the principle of life and even of dignity.
In another attempt on the idea of soul I suggested that the word refers to that unknown component which makes meaning possible, turns events into experiences, is communicated in love, and has a religious concern. These four qualifications I had already put forth several years ago; I had begun to use the term freely, interchangeable with psyche (from Greek) and anima (from Latin). Now I am adding three necessary modifications. First, “soul” refers to the deepening of events into experience; second, the significance soul makes possible, whether in love or in religious concern, derives from its special relation with death. And third, by “soul” I mean the imaginative possibility in our natures, the experiencing through reflective speculation, dream, image, and fantasy – that mode which recognizes all realities as primarily symbolic or metaphorical.”
From the “Introduction” to Revisioning Psychology, by James Hillman
I toss all the above out not to say this is the way it is, but more as entry points into these concepts. See how these comport with your own understanding – even if your thoughts differ, might help you clarify what you need for purposes of your presentations (I assume the 12 hour and 24 hour versions won’t be packed all into one day!).
Circling back to consciousness, though Joseph Campbell does use the word in terms of ego-consciousness (or “waking consciousness”), he does sometimes bend brains with an expansion of the concept of consciousness (though you may not want to go there, depending on your audience and how deep you are diving)
It is a part of the Cartesian mode to think of consciousness as being something peculiar to the head, that the head is the organ originating consciousness. It isn’t. The head is an organ that inflects consciousness in a certain direction, or to a certain set of purposes. But there is a consciousness here in the body. The whole living world is informed by consciousness.
I have a feeling that consciousness and energy are the same thing somehow. Where you really see life energy, there’s consciousness. Certainly the vegetable world is conscious. And when you live in the woods, as I did as a kid, you can see all these different consciousnesses relating to themselves. There is a plant consciousness and there is an animal consciousness, and we share both these things. You eat certain foods, and the bile knows whether there’s something there for it to go to work on. The whole process is consciousness. Trying to interpret it in simply mechanistic terms won’t work.”
Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth
“Let us imagine ourselves for a moment in the lecture hall where I originally presented the material for this chapter. Above, we see the many lights. Each bulb is separate from the others, and we may think of them, accordingly, as separate from each other. Regarded that way, they are so many empirical facts; and the whole universe seen that way is called in Japanese ji hokkai, ‘the universe of things.’
But now, let us consider further. Each of those separate bulbs is a vehicle of light, and the light is not many but one. The one light, that is to say, is being displayed through all those bulbs; and we may think, therefore, either of the many bulbs or of the one light. Moreover, if this or that bulb went out, it would be replaced by another and we should again have the same light. The light, which is one, appears thus through many bulbs.
Analogously, I would be looking out from the lecture platform, seeing before me all the people of my audience, and just as each bulb seen aloft is a vehicle of light, so each of us below is a vehicle of consciousness. But the important thing about a bulb is the quality of its light. Likewise, the important thing about each of us is the quality of his consciousness. And although each may tend to identify himself mainly with his separate body and its frailties, it is possible also to regard one’s body as a mere vehicle of consciousness and to think then of consciousness as the one presence here made manifest through us all. These are but two ways of interpreting and experiencing the same set of present facts. One way is not truer than the other. They are just two ways of interpreting and experiencing: the first, in terms of the manifold of separate things; the second, in terms of the one thing that is made manifest through this manifold. And as, in Japanese, the first is known as ji hokkai, so the second is ri hokkai, the absolute universe.”
“Now the consciousness of ji hokkai cannot help being discriminative, and, experiencing oneself that way, one is bounded, like the light of a bulb, in this fragile present body of glass; whereas in the consciousness of ri hokkai there is no such delimitation. The leading aim of all Oriental mystic teaching, consequently, might be described as that of enabling us to shift our focus of self-identification from, so to say, this light bulb to its light; from this mortal person to the consciousness of which our bodies are but the vehicles. That, in fact, is the whole sense of the famous saying of the Indian Chāndogya Upaniṣad: tat tvam asi, Thou art That,’ ‘You yourself are that undifferentiated universal ground of all being, all consciousness, and all bliss.’ Not, however, the “you” with which one normally identifies: the “you,” that is to say, that has been named, numbered, and computerized for the tax collector. That is not the “you” that is That, but the condition that makes you a separate bulb.
It is not easy, however, to shift the accent of one’s sense of being from the body to its consciousness, and from this consciousness, then, to consciousness altogether.”
Joseph Campbell, “Zen,” Myths to Live By
Consciousness as we experience it both mediates and fits comfortably within ji hokkai – the experienced world – but Campbell suggests consciousness infuses and informs everything in the universe, making our individual ego-consciousness but one expression of consciousness qua Consciousness.
I love the lightbulb metaphor; however, here again we have a bit of an overlap with soul . . . or do we? I’ll leave that to you to determine, but this is a fun concept to play with – use it if it fits.
I don’t know if my post triggers any insights for you into how to present these terms, or just makes your task harder. Ultimately, though, you don’t have to have all the answers: you can’t go wrong if your presentation conveys your passion and enthusiasm for Campbell’s mythological perspective.
Metaphorically Yours,
Stephen Gerringer
tie-dyed teller of tales -
October 4, 2020 at 10:59 pm #4060
I’d like to thank Patrick for spending time with us this week in Conversations of a Higher Order. In response to the unsettling events of this strange and surreal year, Patrick has generously made his film, Finding Joe, available to all (follow the link).
And feel free to check out other entries in our Mythological Resources database.Patrick, a parting question, if you don’t mind – something simple, I trust. The children in your film were delightful! Where did you find them? (That’s a leading question . . . ) And could you share the details behind the party scene that graphically underscores the difference between “following your bliss” and hedonistic overindulgence? That was some mighty convincing acting!
I know you have a full plate at the moment, so thank you for taking the time out to play with us. You aren’t obligated to stick around, but don’t be surprised if this conversation continues in your absence, perhaps wandering down a few intriguing side roads.
Bliss On!
Stephen Gerringer
tie-dyed teller of tales -
October 28, 2020 at 5:32 pm #4151
Patrick has generously posted an outtake from “Finding Joe” that never made it over into the final cut – an elegant little tale from Gay Hendricks. (I had the good fortune of viewing this scene a few years ago, before the film was finished; this nugget of wisdom has made all the difference during those times when I am struggling under a heavy load).
Stephen Gerringer
tie-dyed teller of tales -
November 13, 2020 at 10:31 pm #4242
Because this has been such an important and rewarding conversation Stephen suggested that maybe we should continue on this path that Patrick has opened up by starting another thread on his new upcoming film:” “What is Money?” Joseph had some very specific ideas about this subject; and in honor of Patrick’s inspiring dedication to Joseph’s work that it would appropriate to explore this further in this new topic now listed within this same forum and now open for discussion. There is a short YouTube clip he prepared that explains his intentions about this project included in the opening setup of the topic. Thank you again Patrick for all your dedication and hard work.
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The Conversations of a Higher Order (COHO) consists of ten public forums loosely focused on a central theme. The forums are listed, with a brief description, on the COHO home page (each forum listed on that page also appears in the same order in the menu in the lefthand column – that menu stays with you as you move about the forums). This also shows who created the last post in each forum, and when.
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FAQ: Community
Before you start posting and responding in these forums, please read and follow the following guidelines:
- 1. Respect Others You may certainly take issue with ideas, but please — no flaming / ranting, and no personal or ad hominem attacks. Should the opinion of another forum member spark your anger, please take a deep breath, and/or a break, before posting. Posts must be on topic – related to mythic themes.
- 2. Respect Others’ Opinions These are conversations, not conversions. “Conversation” comes from the Latin words con (“with”) and verso (“opposite”). We expect diverse opinions to be expressed in these forums, and welcome them – but just because you disagree with what someone has to say doesn’t mean they don’t get to say it.
- 3. Come Clear of Mind In addition to expanding the mind, certain substances (alcohol, cocaine, marijuana, LSD, etc.) have been known to impair good judgment. We recommend you keep a journal while under the influence and then later make more rational determinations regarding what is appropriate to share in this forum.
- 4. Respect This Space The Joseph Campbell Foundation, a US not-for-profit organization, offers this forum as part of our mission of continuing Mr. Campbell’s work of increasing the level of public awareness and public discourse with regards to comparative mythology.
- 5. Avoid Contemporary Politics Given the volatile nature of contemporary political discourse, we ask that members steer clear of candidates or current political controversies. Forum members come from across the political spectrum. There are other fora across the internet for discussing myth and politics.
- 6. Be Polite Forum members come from many different sets of cultural assumptions, and many different parts of the world. Please refrain from language whose only purpose is offense. If it helps, imagine your grandmother reading forum posts – as perhaps she may, since other folks’ grandmothers are.
- 7. Refrain from Sexually Explicit Posts Please do not make sexually explicit posts within these forums, unless they are absolutely germane to the discussion underway – and even in that case, please try to warn readers at the top of your post. Not all members have the same threshold when it comes to taking offense to language and pictures. NOTE: Under no circumstances will we condone the posting of links to sites that include child pornography, even inadvertently. We will request that such links be removed immediately, and will remove them ourselves if compliance is not forthcoming. Any Associate knowingly posting such links will be suspended immediately; we will forward a snapshot of the offending page, the web address and the associate’s contact information to the appropriate criminal authorities
- 8. Refrain from Self-Promotion Announcements linking to your new blog post, book, workshop, video clip, etc., will be deleted, unless they are demonstrably part of the greater conversation. The only exception is the Share-Your-Work Gallery, a subforum within The Conversation with a Thousand Faces. If you have art, poetry, writing, or links to music and other work you would like to share, do so here.
- 9. Search First If you’re thinking of starting a new topic, asking a question, etc., please take advantage of the search functionality of this forum! You can find the search field above the list of forums on the main page of the forums. Also, consider searching on the greater JCF website – this site is full of amazing resources on a wide variety of topics, all just a search away.
- 10. Report Violations If you witness or experience behavior that you feel is contrary to the letter or spirit of these guidelines, please report it rather than attacking other members. Do this by choosing the Report button (next to “Reply”) at the top of the post, and select a reason from the dropdown menu (Spam, Advertising, Harassment, or Inappropriate Content). The moderation team will be notified. Depending on the degree of bad behavior, further posts might require approval, or the user could be blocked from posting and even banned.
- 11. Private Messages Forum guidelines apply to all onsite private communications between members. Moderators do not have access to private exchanges, so if you receive messages from another member with inappropriate or hostile content, send a private message (with screenshots) to Stephen Gerringer and/or Michael Lambert.
Visit the Contact the Foundation page, select Technical Support, and fill out the contact form.
The Conversations of a Higher Order (COHO) consists of ten public forums loosely focused on a central theme. The forums are listed, with a brief description, on the COHO home page (each forum listed on that page also appears in the same order in the menu in the lefthand column – that menu stays with you as you move about the forums). This also shows who created the last post in each forum, and when.
When you visit a specific forum you will see the list of topics people have posted so far in that forum. Click on one to read that post and any replies. Feel free to add a reply if you have something to share, or just enjoy following the conversation. You can return to the COHO home page by clicking the "Home>Forums" breadcrumb at the top of the page – or move directly to a different forum by clicking on one of the listings from the forum menu in the lefthand column of the page.
If there’s anything you want to introduce – a question, an observation, or anything related to Campbell, myth, or one of his many related interests – create a topic in the forum you feel comes closest to including the subject you want to discuss. Most forums include in their description a link to a corresponding part of the website. For example, The Work of Joseph Campbell description has a link to all his published works: you can of course focus on a specific book or lecture, but also any topic related to the ideas arising out of his work is welcome in that forum.
When posting a new topic or a reply to an existing conversation, check the “Notify me of follow-up replies via email” box (conversations unfold at a leisurely pace: someone might need a few days to let what you write simmer in the back of their brain – this is how you find out someone has replied), and then click Submit. You can also click "Favorite" (top of the page on the right when reading forum threads) to be notified of all responses in a discussion.
Click on the Profile link under your user name in the upper left corner above the forum menu. Then select Edit and follow the prompts to upload an image file from your computer.
When you finish your post, before clicking the Submit button check the box at the bottom of your post that reads, “Notify me of follow-up replies via email.” You can also click on “Subscribe” (in the upper right corner of a thread) to follow the complete conversation (often a comment on someone else’s post might inspire a response from you).
We ask that when linking to web pages, please avoid posting the raw URL address in your text. Highlight the relevant text you'd like to link in your post, then select the link icon in your formatting bar above your post (immediately to the left of the picture icon, this looks like a diagonal paperclip). This opens a small field:
Paste the URL of the page you are linking to into the field provided. Then click on the gear icon to the right of that field, and check the box that says “Open link in a new tab” (so readers can see your link without having to navigate back to the forums), before clicking the green “Add Link” button.
To add an image to your post, click on the image icon in the menu at the top of your post (it's the icon on the far right):
In the Source field of the pop-up form, click on the camera icon on the far right. This should give you access to the files on your PC / laptop, or the photo library on your mobile device. Select the image, and add a brief description (e.g., "Minoan Goddess") in the appropriate field.
In the dimensions field, you only need enter the first number (240 is a good size for starters; if too small click the edit icon and increase that number). Then select OK.
Click on the name of the person you want to contact (under their avatar in a any of their posts). This link will take you to that member’s profile page. Then click on “Send a Message,” and compose.
If you witness or experience behavior that you feel is contrary to the letter or spirit of these guidelines, please report it rather than attacking other members. Do this by choosing the Report button (next to “Reply”) at the top of the post, and select a reason from the dropdown menu (Spam, Advertising, Harassment, or Inappropriate Content). The moderation team will be notified. Depending on the degree of bad behavior, further posts might require approval, or the user could be blocked from posting and even banned.
Visit the Contact the Foundation page, select Community and Social Media, and fill out the contact form.