Home › Forums › MythBlasts › “The Metamorphic Journey,” with Craig Deininger, Ph.D.
Tagged: aesthetic arrest, life story, metamorphosis, metaphor, myth, transformation
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September 29, 2021 at 5:01 pm #6278
Craig Deininger, Ph.D. – mythologist, poet, Jungian scholar, and construction worker – joins us this week in Conversations of a Higher Order to discuss “The Metamorphic Journey” (click on link to read), his latest contribution to JCF’s MythBlast essay series.
Though I will start the discussion, this is not an interview. Please join in and engage Craig directly with your questions, comments, reactions, observations and insights, which is what makes this communal exchange of ideas a true “conversation of a higher order.”
Craig – there are so many nuggets in your ode to change – or rather, to the inner change that myth inspires. This passage in particular stands out for me:
Metaphor is our first big tool because it transcribes mythological narratives (i.e., stories about someone else) into stories about ‘me.’ Or, more specifically, through metaphor, the relationships between mythic characters and the stories they find themselves in are precise correlations to the relationships between me and the stories I find myself in.”
I suspect that may be what so many found compelling about Campbell’s Power of Myth interviews with Bill Moyers – the epiphany that all these myths aren’t just ancient stories from past cultures hidden away in dusty tomes on library shelves, but actually speak to me and my circumstances today.
Still, there is a difference between an intellectual understanding of that dynamic, and its actual application. Would you mind sharing for readers an example of the resonance between a character or story from myth and the plot of an episode from your own life, and how that made a difference for you?
I trust others might be encouraged to do the same in this thread.
Stephen Gerringer
tie-dyed teller of tales -
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October 2, 2021 at 11:49 pm #6298
Thank you Stephen, you present a valuable direction: applicability to the abstract, conceptual understanding—why the expression is “give me a concrete example” to carry it over.
Here’s a brief account of what first came to mind: a time when I was very low on dollars, and so camped out in the Alabama Hills—a place not like it sounds, being hardly Alabama-like, seeing that the geography is where Death Valley (the lowest point on earth) meets the base of Mount Whitney (the highest place in the contiguous U. S.)–and that’s a metaphor right there! But before getting sidetracked on another metaphor, let me continue with the story: I was living in a tent there for about three months, reading books about mythology for my classes, and with my cat Fergus (who did quite well out there). Though sometimes the temperature got up around 115 degrees. On one such day Fergus and I hiked up the Whitney Portal trail for cooler air.
We got to a point where we sat on the top of a juncture where two sheer cliffs met, call it the point where the two legs of the letter V touch. It was about a 300-foot drop. So we sat down to take in the space and wind and all, when three ravens showed up. They circled about a hundred feet above us, and then dived down past us into the opened space between the cliffs—I mean right past us so that were I to quickly reach out and grab I would have ravens.
Didn’t try that. And wouldn’t want to. I consider animals in my presence to be exalted guests–or rather hosts, and myself to be their fortunate guest. Anyway, after dropping to nearly the bottom of the cliffs, they then skimmed the ground and swooped back up to their original circling pattern, and then dived down again, and again, every time passing within our reach. This process continued for a long time. Maybe 20 minutes, it’s hard to track time during extraordinary experiences. Fergus certainly wasn’t keeping track, being far too thrilled.
From the time before the ravens arrived and until their departure, I was seated cross-legged chanting Sanskrit verses from Vedic literature that I had memorized, my focus was on resonance, on my body being a struck tuning fork, itself vibrating and vibrating the atmosphere around it with sound waves and perhaps meaning. And as I had been practicing this regularly, I was at the time pretty good at it. So I just kept doing it, naturally thinking/hoping it may have had something to do with the ravens’ activity. It was a rare and beautiful encounter.
Okay, that’s the story.
Now to the mythic metaphor. Where to begin? There are so many myths about ravens and cliffs. And a common mistake, I think, is selecting one myth, and one myth only, that “I” like. The training teaches us to be wary of conflating with the archetypes and of inflating ourselves through them. For example, for me at the time, I may have conflated them with Odin’s ravens Huginn and Muninn (thought and memory). And why wouldn’t I want this? Having been conditioned from 8th grade by that awesome drawing-representation of the god in the Dungeons and Dragons “Deities and Demigods” book. Had there been two crows and not three, I may have gone more deeply with that one.
But, it doesn’t exclude that myth either, they were, after all, ravens and we must amplify—that is, consider myths from as many cultures as we can. This gives us the general, underlying gestalt—the bass-line or background from which the specific “as-is” character of the event is archetypally permeated. So I look to so many others and find the raven as trickster-figure in many of the Native American myths, or as a solar figure via Apollo in the Greek, or as a figure that does its own thing and flies off and never comes back as seen with Noah in the Old Testament. And then there’s the raven as an omen of death, being a carrion eater, which works fine for mythologists, death being the superlative metaphor for rebirth and transformation.
But seeing as I was engaged in Vedic content, I’m inclined to give a little more weight to that direction. In the Vedic tradition, ravens are associated with the deity Shani [Saturn]. I find Jyotish to be a great mythological system (as all systems of astrology are). And Shani, as an archetypal force, grounds or brings things down, slows things down—even psychologically as in depression—but again, to a mythologist, depression is good news, meaning one is at the nadir of the wheel’s rotation, and the next direction is upward. And because one is in a position of gestation. And even more so, I suspect it is a generous communication from deep within: that one is being “told” to slow down, and for one’s own good!
So one metaphorical correlation (and surely not the only one), and applying quite a mix or gestalt of the many of the things I’ve mentioned, would be that the cyclic flight of the ravens (accompanied by all that they symbolize) were a metaphor for my inner transformation, and for my travel between depression–as at the time I had a good deal of it, contending with loneliness (thank god for Fergus!) and financial stuff, etc.–but I was also elated to have begun my formal studies in a graduate program in mythology, and to be getting all this valuable knowledge. The event told me something along the lines of “Embrace the season you are in, and when that season changes, as it will, embrace what the new season brings, whether from depression to exhilaration, or from gaining new knowledge from my studies “above” (ethereal, abstract, intellectual) and bringing it down into my life, and past my life into “soul.” And of course, since these wonderful mythic/real beings were the messengers, whatever the metaphor, their presence and activity alone was another metaphor, affirming that I was exactly where I was supposed to be: in my story.
Okay, that’s a long entry, but wanted to offer a broad selection of content to work with, and will be briefer in my responses!
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October 5, 2021 at 5:23 pm #6318
If Ravens are the subject. I’m there!
So apologies if I covered this before (even in another Deininger myth blast!)My experience also happened on a cliff…the edge of Grand Canyon. It was a time of transition as my Grandmother had passed recently and my Mom, Dad and I were going on a trip Out West.
Grandmother would have gone with us.
But in memory of her…we went. Mother had driven her parents out west a long time ago and she wanted Dad and me to see it too.
Many adventures happened including Mesa Verde (seeing those small hand prints in the cliff is humbling.)But neither Dad nor I had seen the Grand Canyon. It was mind blowing.
everything just opened up…you could feel it…
I played a little Zuni flute I’d just bought at an Arizona trading post…just sitting back from the rim…gazing across all those painted layers.
When I returned back to the camper and sat with the sliding door open, this huge black Raven came sidling around to the open door.
This was no harbinger of doom…this was a character of Native myths curious, trickster and that something else…(He) picked up a pebble to show off a ravens excellent tossing skills…except it did not go as planned as the pebble bopped him on the beak. (He)shook ruffled his feathers in Corvid frustration. So yes a bit of trickster/clown energy (and not scary clown)
But for me something clicked. For me it was not the archetypes associated with the raven but the Raven itself. Since the Native cultures have other life forms besides humans alone as archetypes and or energies. The raven was a representative of Raven in that imaginal realm.
I had other raven references earlier in my life but had never acknowledged them completely until this moment and once I did that raven story connected into other adventures, chance meetings and so forth.
Wherever I was or would go, I would (see) these birds. Appearing literally to engage my consciousness to “play,” in this imaginal realm. Still happens.Sometimes I joke the crows point the way to go…(crows too fit with this)
As the crow flies y’know.
One of my favorite connections through my feathered friends is the Naturalist Bernd Heinrich who raised and studied Ravens himself. I was looking for raven calls for a music cd and Had read Bernd’s Mind of the Raven. I contacted him but his return email said all his cassettes of calls were in a shoebox somewhere. He recommended Cornell lab of ornithology, which I used. But even though I never had bird calls from Bernd Heinrich, I gained a lovely pen pal friendship instead. And I even traded him my CD for a signed copy of his book Geese of Beaver Bog.
One other thought: there was a lovely couple from Finland or Friesland? And the wife was really spooked by the Raven. So that was interesting because probably for her or within their culture a raven must have add an ominous perception. But I was not afraid at all.
This was a Native Raven!!…not Poe’s never more bird! Or the black winged war goddess of ancient Ireland!Now I in my usual parzeval or entish manner have carried on as well!
I hope more participants come to participate with this!!
p.s. the other participant in the trip was Prissy (Caprice) our soon to be “well traveled,” Blue Point Siamese.
By Wyoming she stopped voicing her Siamese opinions!-
October 5, 2021 at 6:43 pm #6320
This is tangential to the actual conversation, but thought I would share about the time I asked my ornithologist friend the difference between a crow and a raven.
“Well,” she said, “you know the pinion feathers on the end of birds wing that help them steer? Ravens have 11, while crows just have ten.”
So it seems the difference between a crow and a raven is simply a matter of a pinion . . .
Stephen Gerringer
tie-dyed teller of tales-
October 5, 2021 at 7:31 pm #6322
Ha, that’s great. I also heard something once about the beak being either yellow or black, and the bird being larger or smaller, but haven’t researched it. But I think your point, Stephen, is also something along the lines of we don’t have to squabble over differences as miniscule as “a pinion.” (I couldn’t resist 🙂
But underneath the humor, a valuable point (for me, at least): Raven or Crow, don’t overthink it. I’m glad we, as mythologists, have the leisure of backing out of the math and getting back into the enjoyment and experience of encountering the figure and the story, itself.
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October 6, 2021 at 12:06 am #6336
Thanks for bearing with me, Craig!
As a matter of fact, that is not the actual difference between those two members of the corvid family – but since most people couldn’t say just exactly what distinguishes one from the other, that’s what I latch onto to make the pun work (I’m not proud – certainly nothing to crow about). 😄
Puns, though, do intrigue me. That leap of association, the dynamic that makes punning possible, seems embedded as well in symbolic thinking – which brings us back to your essay (intuiting a relationship between mythic stories and my story), and the example you share from your own life. Had we, unbeknownst to each other, been sitting the other side of the same rock at the exact same moment you had your experience, I might well have turned to indigenous tales of Raven given the setting, influenced by the geography and the myths associated with it; you, on the other hand, recognized a congruence with the material in which you were immersed.
Same three ravens, same geographical context, but different lives, different histories, different circumstances, and a difference in engagement with the same mythic image.
That to me is one of the wonders of mythic symbols. It might be different if we were raised in a cultural where everyone underwent the same initiations, were fed the same myths, participated in the same rituals – but today, when that just isn’t happening, every myth and fairy tale – and, come to think of it, every song, story, painting, and poem – has both a collective and a subjective aspect. The latter speaks specifically to me and my circumstances (assuming that I have “the ears to hear”), just as it does to all the other “me”s who engage the same set of symbols.
That protean, shapeshifting aspect strikes me as very much part of the magic of myth.
Stephen Gerringer
tie-dyed teller of tales-
October 6, 2021 at 3:26 am #6338
Yes, I love that direction, being attentive to the innumerable potential takes on a symbol’s meaning (all dependent on the consciousness of the percipient). And thank god for that–literally a world in which, at last, anything is possible.
And there is that aspect to the puns, beneath the humor. They function similarly to symbol and metaphor, being a bridge via the ambiguity of a word to another word of the same or similar sound. And suddenly, they are in relationship. I’m recalling that the Ancient Egyptians (and not sure why that topic keeps coming up–uh, aside from me bringing it up) took puns very seriously and that when words were phonetically equivalent then one would have to be attentive to the reality of the “second” meaning, because it was invited by the sound. Not to get too far off topic.
But more on topic, I like how you word it as “protean,” inviting the whole Proteus myth which, as all mythic allusions, can speak pages in a single word. But namely, the aspect of capturing the “one” meaning of the symbol, which one can then rightfully, and only, call one’s own. It’s that versatility of the symbol to accommodate, precisely, one’s subjective disposition, that intrigues me most.
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October 5, 2021 at 10:35 pm #6331
Haha Stephen! Great wordplay there!
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October 5, 2021 at 5:44 pm #6319
Sometimes I feel, the more we put the imaginal (creative) realm at bay…the more our journey/s are focused on finding answers and/or “knowing,” answers and they become less about “discovery.” (Discovery Meaning the journey “as is,” provides discoveries along the way, which can potentially lead to aha! Moments but in a more indirect way. That What you are looking for is somehow already there?)
Or Luna Lovegood in Harry Potter saying “sometimes the things we loose don’t always return to us in the way we expect.” Yes Ravenclaw I know.
That’s why I love how you reference the Mystery Craig!
I feel we need it but also understand that very human part of us that seeks answers as well as needs them.It’s natural…it’s human nature.My concern in the balance between the “imaginal,” and the secular world “as is,” which we also need according to Robert Mirabal’s “Navajo Fires,”…
Is that the purpose of the Mystery is conceived to be “that which can be figured out and will be,” that the purpose of the mystery can be completely explained, measured and quantified…all mysteries are to be solved in other words…
“Solved” instead of “experienced?” Even if sometimes it’s through experience and wonder and The Unexpected…that some of the greatest discoveries have come to light.
Any thoughts? Craig? Stephen?
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October 5, 2021 at 7:19 pm #6321
Thanks for sharing this! I think you point out some great things here. First, I too would give extra emphasis to Raven as trickster-figure in your encounter. And in great part due to the region and the culture of that region—“when in Rome…” as the saying goes, or rather, “when in Arizona…” And even when we’re within a culture and region, there are subcultures and sub-regions. Like in Ancient Egypt where in different parts of the nation, different gods rule or are worshipped—for example, in Heliopolis Atum-Re is the chief deity, or Sais it is Neith/Isis or in Hermopolis, Thoth, etc. and that when one is in a particular region, that god or goddess’s energy and influence is fused into the region—or so I like to imagine it. So yes, trickster of the Zuni.
So in your encounter, we get the playing, to the point of clowing-around, with the pebble. And trickster here showing so clearly “Hey, don’t take yourself so seriously—here’s how!” And all the valuable things that come with deepening into less self-importance. A freedom of sorts. Like Hillman says somewhere, “Let’s relieve ourselves of the burden of self-importance.” What a welcome visitor.
I really appreciate your not focusing on “the archetypes associated with the raven but on the Raven itself.” –getting caught up in what things represent is just a lateral hand-off for the conceptual intellect, and not the heart of the experience. However, and as you point out also, this knowledge of archetypal reference has its part in it. To this point, I like to think of what Marie-Louise von Franz and Jung say about this, which is basically—“yes, learn the associations. But then forget them.” (Rather a trickster-ish thing to say, too). I suppose the purpose of the saying is that we aren’t railroaded into an intellectual certainty as opposed to staying with the richness of the experience: Raven. And what raven is up to. In short, I feel also, that by learning the archetypal associations and then forgetting them has another value in that even though we’ve supposedly “forgotten” them, that knowledge, or the residue of that knowledge is still there, functioning as an invisible, general structure gently guide as opposed to dictate.
Like I say to my students: “Kung fu—practice the forms and techniques, then drop them if you want to win the match.” But now they know that whenever I say “kung fu,” it means we’re probably going to be getting into some routine-ish, practical, less-exciting content. Not the experience. Alas.
But all this to come back to what you share on the mystery. The preferred direction (my bias acknowledged). You do mention that mysteries are to be experienced, but they are also meant to be solved. And I agree. It’s important to not get one-sided on approach. But I’ll remain a little one-sided and add that my favorite part of solving a mystery is that a new mystery presents itself that otherwise would not have, had I not solved the former. And maybe these deeper levels of mystery are what establish the path for our imagination’s journey. I just now realize that I failed to stay with Raven in all this. I hope we can get back to that as well in our thread.
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October 5, 2021 at 8:04 pm #6324
Perhaps I should modify my stance on discovery/solving puzzles/ and mystery.
An aside: corvids are quite the puzzle solvers.
Back to that in a minute.
I really like the idea of solving a mystery, which opens to a new mystery.
Bernd Heinrich says something similar in his studies as a naturalist…and ornithologist…that when he goes to solve something with one idea of what is happening then he is absolutely delighted when he is wrong and nature shows him something else that’s happening.
I highly recommend any of his books…including the ones on ravens.Bernd does a lot of study in the field and while in his Maine cabin a reference to Thoreau or Frost wouldn’t be out of place even if like Parzeval some of Bernd’s methods such as climbing trees for raven eggs at least during one period of his life would be more unorthodox.
Bernd emphasizes the need to interact with nature in order to appreciate it rather than build a fence around it.
He often says after making a discovery about a mystery in nature that is the closest thing (to truth and beauty.)Or even for a better quicker view introducing Bernd Heinrich is an independent film dvd made by Jan Cannon. “An Uncommon Curiosity at home and in Nature with Bernd Heinrich.”
As for Ravens…they are larger than crows. Some have compared their size to be about equal to a red tail hawk.
Raven’s also have a wedge tail, which crows do not have.
Crows are sleek and shiny black.
Ravens are more ruffled. Even though they are dark black with undertones of purple/blue. Crows have sharp pointed beaks.
Ravens have large beaks sometimes jokingly remembered in comparison to having a “Roman nose.” The Beak is rounded on the top.
Ravens over all tend to be much shaggier than their shiny cousins.
Both Ravens and crows have demonstrated excellent puzzle solving skills. Trained Ravens can learn words just like parrots.
I think Heinrich was one of the first to prove juvenile ravens worked together to find and protect food caches.
Ravens are fascinated by various trinkets it’s proven now and some have even suggested Corvids have “left gifts,” for humans who have fed them.
gifts such as pull tabs and pine cones.
Heinrich after working with Ravens believes there is a “consciousness,” there. I’ll have to find that link.
Their intelligence is considered to be remarkably high…along with simians, dolphins and parrots.
Some of the information is from Bernd Heinrich books and some from other articles and bird guides I’ve read but unfortunately don’t remember the sources now.
So that’s more Raven…trivia -
October 5, 2021 at 8:13 pm #6325
here is Bernd Heinrich talking about consciousness in Ravens.
And apparently he is not the only one. Glanced several articles just written last year from other researchers about this subject.-
October 6, 2021 at 3:38 am #6339
Finally, I now have a clear distinction between crows and ravens. And thanks for the short video on consciousness revealed in the ravens with the string. Could we say that the in that the raven’s thinking ahead to the consequences of either holding or letting go of the string that the raven is “imagining” into the possibilities? Sure, I don’t have the answer, but I like to explore possibilities.
And thence, the relationship between imagination and consciousness. Again, don’t have the answers, but I do suspect that the two are entwined more fully than most would think.
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October 6, 2021 at 3:40 am #6340
…but it does get a bit messy, when we get into the distinctions between “thinking” and “imagining.” Like I said, don’t have the answer, but just in wrestling with it, may come up with something of value.
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October 6, 2021 at 1:32 am #6337
Thanks, All, and thank you Craig for the mythblast, this is such a fun and interesting topic to me.
One fictional story that has always served for me as a great example of change/metamorphosis is a story by that very name: The Metamorphosis by Franz Kafka–what a magnificent story! While the main character wakes up one day to find himself in the physical form of being a big bug rather than a human anymore, the changes he goes through are also inner–or it could be perhaps appropriate to say that his inner changes he was going through at the time of stress in his life and family have created the outer metamorphosis. We could sit here and wonder whether it was the inner effect on the outer or the outer on the inner–or both simultaneously working upon the other.. Of course the reader is to take his so-called metamorphosis metaphorically! At that same time, when we imagine the character Gregor Sama as a giant bug, we can also see/imagine ourselves as a giant bug and so we see ourselves in the story, our selves/Gregor reflecting our own feelings of alienation back at us as we are all prone to do at times, especially at sensitive times in our lives such s teen years or early adulthood when we have to get out in the world and make choices our family might not agree with, etc. It is such a fun story as it is gripping. I might say it would be fun to examine this as another type of Jungian shadow projection, or its dynamics–a roundabout way of looking at the projection of the Shadow. As for Campbell, perhaps this is a hero’s journey threshold moment when it is not the others he sees that are alien at the threshold but himself he sees as he ha crossed the threshold overnight into the new strange life as a bug being the threshold because he is still in his own home–so there is a twist on a hero’s journey step, perhaps. Also as Campbell says in the Power of Myth about the story of the woman who married the man who turned out to be a snake (literally, bad medicine man/magician), her threshold was when she crossed the water signifying a spiritual break from the physical or a change from regular earthly known “normalcy,” and this story by Kafka has sort of the same theme only with very different motifs though each one still a vermin of some sort or a pest, whether the snake-man husband who is a evil magician or of Gregor who feels like and therefore has symbolically/metaphorically turned into a bug. Here is a website address you can cut and paste:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/The-Metamorphosis
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October 6, 2021 at 3:58 am #6341
Yes, Marianne. I think that Gregor’s plight is an excellent example of metaphor, and as you mention, of shadow. After all, it is a bug that he transforms into. And for most, I think it is our tendency to push the insect-qualities down into the shadow. I mean, who wants to consciously associate oneself with a cockroach when there are other supposedly nobler options like eagles and dolphins, etc? But the shadow work is so healthy. I’m a big fan of keeping an eye on it as best I can, so that I don’t inflate into the too high up regions and then have to suffer (another) fall–not to mention, the value of integrating “my” totality, which is greater than simply all the conscious, and supposedly “better” stuff all stacked-up one-sidedly on the scales.
But more to the point, you illustrate how the hero’s journey can transpire entirely internally. In which case the metaphor gives the internal condition a body visible. Now we have the image, the matter to work with. And I think this is relevant to myth in these times. While we’re engaged in the mundane of taking the subway to work, brushing our teeth, fielding emails and texts, the hero’s or heroine’s adventure in the day to day is greatly internalized. So all the more need for metaphorical directions, they can deepen the ordinary. And I find a freedom in that, however big or small it may be.
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October 7, 2021 at 3:26 pm #6356
Marianne,
I love what you wrote, much to dwell upon. “Yes, As for Campbell, perhaps this is a hero’s journey threshold moment when it is not the others he sees that are alien at the threshold but himself he sees as he ha crossed the threshold overnight into the new strange life as a bug being the threshold because he is still in his own home–so there is a twist on a hero’s journey step, perhaps. ” Yes, hero’s moment of finally committing to the journey. IN my dreams, I have encountered a few, on the threshold.
There are so many variations in the hero’s journey, and as you somewhere elaborated that hero’s journey is part of the Lit curriculum in colleges now. On the internet, just yesterday, I came across another writer, whose paper, perhaps thesis was ‘change management’, as a hero’s journey. What more is to come?
Shaahayda
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October 6, 2021 at 4:26 pm #6343
Stephen:While we are engaged in the mundane…
Yes! As a young dancer (15/16) had to take the “train” (subway) for classes in NYC. I was coming from out of town (so would spend a few months/summers up in the city over the years.)
I remember the train tunnels underground, the heat, the sound…it felt quite mythic. The subway was never just a “subway.” Those trains (were dragons.) And I wrote a poem ode to them entitled “Dragons of the Underworld,” which was published in a small periodical.
The trains “roared,” you could feel the electricity in the air…the heat of the tunnels, the ogle of the yellow eye of an oncoming train…and the power of these metallic beasts roaring past.
My favorites were the “red dragons,” the express trains now sadly long since retired. The whole underground tunnels would vibrate with sound and wind of passing trains…you could feel it in the bones…it was exciting!Then as I referenced in the ode after queuing up like billiard balls, we would hop onto a dragon and fly into the dark!
After a long day of dance (tired and hungry) the roars of passing dragons in the tunnels never failed to inspire and excite as everything else was drowned out except their presence. I needed the trains to be dragons…something vibrant and alive and magical living in the urban jungle.
I felt for the other commuters who were exhausted from work and life and only wanted to get from point A to B.
But the dragons were mostly my secret. Except I was lucky to have a Mom who supported my “imaginative stance.” Grin. She too would reference the “red dragons.” And it was worth a poem after all!The reason perhaps for my mythic experience also related to having seen CBS’s “Beauty and the Beast,” which has all the mythic symbols of a “real underworld.” A blend of reality and fantasy and classic literature/poetry.
Central Park as well has its own wonderful mythic feeling…it’s incredible even years later walking out of the city and into the park how the sound of traffic begins to mute as one passes through this “invisible,” barrier and is surrounded by the green.And to be fair there are many wonderful parks in NYC, Brooklyn etc.
If one knows where to look!!
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October 7, 2021 at 2:43 am #6350
Well, you have me at “dragons.” I love the creatures. In fact, so much that there’s always been a part of me that is sad when a dragon is slain in a story, even if they were the bad kind hoarding treasure and breathing fire on everything for no good reason and all.
But to me, they’ve always been the treasure. All mythic beings are to me. Though I wax literal, the tangible image has always moved me more than realizing the connotations–I know, you wouldn’t think so for all my scribblings on metaphor and symbol. Ha.
But that brings me to your poem, and to poetry per se, which, in the language arts, is the quintessential image-making genre. I simply am enthralled by the image alone, and like Dylan Thomas, by the shapes and sounds of the words. And that may have something to say about getting to the metaphor. That we can intellectualize and interpret what it means all we want, but there’s no getting there without the image. And maybe by creating the art, making the image, as you did in your “Dragon of the Underworld” it is not the train that shows itself, but the dragon in all its dragon-ness that is the heart of the red train. Or should I say, that is the red heart of the train.
And as your post reads, you now have an image that your mother and you could come back to, to really get to that heart imaginatively. I guess what I’m circling here, is that the dragon is the main event–to me at least–and that being imaginatively present with that image, the rest follows. I still like to carry the residue of the intellectual understanding of the mechanics of metaphor so that I can feel its application to my life. But just enough so that it’s on automatic, so that I don’t have to think about it during the encounter, and instead just get to remain there, fully in the myth.
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October 7, 2021 at 5:21 am #6354
Poetry… that call came from Beauty and the Beast (my parents vetted it for me) and I am thankful. Ron Pearlman was a former Shakespearean actor.
And not only was there this mythical/real underworld below the (dragon tunnels) but also worlds of poems and poets…Shakespeare and Frost I knew…but new names echoed in my young head…and I had to find every poem recited…every poet mentioned!
Libraries and bookstores called! I eagerly scanned shelves and flipped through volumes searching for these treasures made of words and sounds and images!
I gained a reputation among my friends of being someone who memorized a lot of stuff. Heh heh. But I loved it! It must have seemed strange but in my preteen and early teen years names like Percy Bish Shelly and Walter De la Mare and Lord Byron…danced in my head!During a break in a youth play production, I recited (Xanadu-Samuel Taylor Coleridge) to the musical arranger. She looked at me and said “I have a challenge for you. Look up Alfred Noyse, “The Highwayman.”
I did…and it became my new favorite! That one was “acted out.” To be clear no one was making me memorize…I had zeal for it!
The greatest challenge because of the rhythm and wording was “Fern Hill,” yes Dylan Thomas. I loved and love it…moving through the images…walking through the orchards hearing the foxes bark “clear and cold” and the “sabbath ringing slowly in the pebbles of the holy stream.”the wishes “racing through the house high hay…”
It’s especially poignant and freeing at the same time. The last line always catches me. “I sang in my chains like the sea.”
And one of my very favorites but I have no idea which translation I memorized…Renoir Marie Rilke…
And to wind back to dragons but only the opening lines Rilke: How should we be able to forget those myths at the beginnings of all people? The myths about dragons who at the last moment turn into princesses?
Because of all these poets including “ “new”poems I learned from Frost and Shakespeare…I began writing my own poems.
B&B was a call to adventure!!
Yes, there was a beast in the tunnels but the treasure was not a prince or princess…the treasure and beauty was words and poetry!
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October 7, 2021 at 9:55 pm #6358
It is refreshing to hear of someone committing to memory the poems that speak to them. And although I don’t categorize mythology definitively as poetry, I often call it that. It surely is poetic. And is so all over the place.
During my MFA, I committed 60 pages of poetry to memory, some of which in other languages–about 5 pages of Beowulf in Old English, some Baudelaire, Neruda, a longer piece in Sanskrit from the Puranas and, yes, Fern Hill (since we almost need to merit Dylan with having his own language–ha. And these continue to work wonderfully to sustain the language the piece was written in in my awareness–and with that, all the possibilities of syntax or whatever that are normally not amenable to English can become more so–in short, it offers ways to bend the ‘rule’ and refresh/renew the expression).
But more important, I think memorization is a bit of a lost art, and with that loss, we’ve lost the opportunity to integrate particular pieces that resonate with us into our repertoire, our minds, even, perhaps, our bodies, and language that is somehow both mythic and magical at that.
That a particular poem or segment of a myth resonates with someone is enough to merit memorization. And I don’t believe in having to extrapolate “why” it resonates with me, it just does.
Technology has supposedly relieved us of the burden of memorization–don’t need to remember a phone number, for example. But there’s a loss in that, I think. Well, obviously. So good for you for practicing that art. I think it can only deepen ones relationship to the myths or poems, and on a level that I don’t think technology can yet evaluate. Perhaps it will though soon enough.
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October 7, 2021 at 12:36 pm #6355
Hello,
Thank you for the mythblast …
The theme of metamorphosis is both ancient and timely it is an eternal metaphor of organic change … From insect moth butterfly ,The Golden Ass & Ovid to Kafka & Metamorpho, real name Rex Mason of DC comics. The allusion are quite profound and lots of fun to play with. Such exquisite metaphysical connotation can be aroused with the words and imagery of the metamorphic process. After all is said and done
“You’re a Butterfly and the Butterflies are free to fly”
There is also the shadow side of those that believe they have transformed and risen above the heard of common humanity.
Monarch Mind (Mind Control, MK ULTRA) comes to mind. Pun intended 😀
But then again there is also the Light side of the process. The moth that is drawn higher nearer the flame compelled to speak in “Conversations Of A Higher Order.”
Which brings to mind the cautionary compelling words of Paul … “ If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. … But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.“ Lots of fun to seek those Kenshō Samadi Satori moments as One rises to the Flame .… Within …
R³
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October 7, 2021 at 10:20 pm #6359
Thanks for sharing this. I’m a big fan of the puns. And not just because of the humor part, which they often carry. But often a deeper meaning accompanies as you point out with “monarch.”
I mean, I appreciate their ambiguity. I remember my creative writing mentor once quoting John Ashbery, and rather sternly “…and ambiguity is clarity!” It struck me. Each of the term’s meanings is the meaning, yes. But more importantly, all of the terms’ meanings are, simultaneously, it’s meaning in a sort of linguistic synesthesia. And I suspect that one need not focus on each to receive the meaning, (or better, experience of the meaning), but rather that their collective meaning is experienced in some way that I am incapable of putting words to. But it certainly opens the vista of possibilities.
Yes, monarch being both ruler and a butterfly. And in the context you provide, a ruler that abuses power and then the butterfly which I don’t think is very bully-ish. But an excellent symbol of transformation being caterpillar, chrysalis, and finally wings, a sublimation from crawling on the ground to fluttering in the sky, transporting the creature vertically from the lower to upper realms.
So you show in the ambiguity you provided, the two sides of the political monarch, high flying and then the caterpillar shadow, as you say, of potential abusive ruler.
And then there is a sort of third pun, well, actually a slant-pun, if we look at the Greek word for soul psyche, we find it also means, in Greek, a kind of butterfly. How fitting, seeing the butterfly’s individuation (caterpillar/chrysalis/wings), and also even in its flight pattern, reminiscent of scissoring, going in a particular direction yet doing so in an almost frenetic or unpredictable manner. Much like the psychic journey. Reminds me of a famous quote from Jung:
“But the right way to wholeness is made up, unfortunately, of fateful detours and wrong turnings. It is a longissima via, not straight but snakelike, a path that unites the opposites in the manner of the guiding caduceus, a path whose labyrinthine twists and turns are not lacking in terrors.”
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October 8, 2021 at 12:20 am #6361
Hello,
All of our lives are a metamorphosis , a journey of the spirit rising through the mythic chakras in the chrysalis of flesh. An ascension journey from the jungle of our lower beastial nature of ignorance and error allegorized as base chakra up the spine to the pinnacle of intellect rational thought logic reason intellect . Taking flight from the imprisoning flesh as Papillon !!! It is A broken , Long And Winding Road … a journey of anguish sorrow trauma awe beauty Love trembling release … may all be enlightening on their Odyssey …
May all get their wings at their appointed time !!!
And plant those flowers great for Butterfly gardens metaphors and puns !!!
Bloom said Leopold … Yes said Molly … Spill some fermented seed said Finnegan !!! It’s all about the metamorphosis of distilled vegetation !!! Spirits , I tell ya ! Spirits from the vine !!! Saluté !!!
Nature the source of the best allegory and parable …
R³
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October 8, 2021 at 3:55 pm #6363
Butterflies, transformation/metamorphosis yes R-3!
In many cultures butterflies represent the soul.
And here is my shortest post of the year!
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October 8, 2021 at 9:34 pm #6365
Yes, and I will follow suit, sunbug,
and add that the National Geographic butterfly-transformation
is beautiful. Love how the body at the end resembles a pitch dark
nightsky dotted with stars.–my new shortest-post record as well 🙂
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October 9, 2021 at 2:32 am #6366
Yes !
caterpillar
shortest post , yes , transformation/metamorphosis/change yes !!!
Butterfly
R³
——————
O yes e yes !!!
To Ithaca !!!
Where Papy Rus and Pen elope !!!
Record the Journey , metamorphosis ,
of Married Life … Hieros Gamos
The Cocoon and Womb of Humanity …
civilization …
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October 11, 2021 at 11:05 pm #6394
The butterfly is realized…
This evening as I waited to enter a dump site….a bright orange and black monarch flickers up above my hood and flies into the tall trees above.
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October 13, 2021 at 10:33 pm #6404
From Dump Site …
Through the
Flight of the “Sunbug”
the scarab of Egypt
that metamorphosis of
Mere mortal is achieved …
Through the Synchronicity of
Individuation …
The metaphor & metamorphosis
of the life cycle , the cycle of change ,
from worm to wing …
The stages of ascension
Nigredo, Albedo, Citrinitas and Rubedo.
in the Magnum Opus
Are realized …
Within …
The Enso …
“Think you’re escaping and run into yourself. Longest way round is the shortest way home.”
R³
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- 2. Respect Others’ Opinions These are conversations, not conversions. “Conversation” comes from the Latin words con (“with”) and verso (“opposite”). We expect diverse opinions to be expressed in these forums, and welcome them – but just because you disagree with what someone has to say doesn’t mean they don’t get to say it.
- 3. Come Clear of Mind In addition to expanding the mind, certain substances (alcohol, cocaine, marijuana, LSD, etc.) have been known to impair good judgment. We recommend you keep a journal while under the influence and then later make more rational determinations regarding what is appropriate to share in this forum.
- 4. Respect This Space The Joseph Campbell Foundation, a US not-for-profit organization, offers this forum as part of our mission of continuing Mr. Campbell’s work of increasing the level of public awareness and public discourse with regards to comparative mythology.
- 5. Avoid Contemporary Politics Given the volatile nature of contemporary political discourse, we ask that members steer clear of candidates or current political controversies. Forum members come from across the political spectrum. There are other fora across the internet for discussing myth and politics.
- 6. Be Polite Forum members come from many different sets of cultural assumptions, and many different parts of the world. Please refrain from language whose only purpose is offense. If it helps, imagine your grandmother reading forum posts – as perhaps she may, since other folks’ grandmothers are.
- 7. Refrain from Sexually Explicit Posts Please do not make sexually explicit posts within these forums, unless they are absolutely germane to the discussion underway – and even in that case, please try to warn readers at the top of your post. Not all members have the same threshold when it comes to taking offense to language and pictures. NOTE: Under no circumstances will we condone the posting of links to sites that include child pornography, even inadvertently. We will request that such links be removed immediately, and will remove them ourselves if compliance is not forthcoming. Any Associate knowingly posting such links will be suspended immediately; we will forward a snapshot of the offending page, the web address and the associate’s contact information to the appropriate criminal authorities
- 8. Refrain from Self-Promotion Announcements linking to your new blog post, book, workshop, video clip, etc., will be deleted, unless they are demonstrably part of the greater conversation. The only exception is the Share-Your-Work Gallery, a subforum within The Conversation with a Thousand Faces. If you have art, poetry, writing, or links to music and other work you would like to share, do so here.
- 9. Search First If you’re thinking of starting a new topic, asking a question, etc., please take advantage of the search functionality of this forum! You can find the search field above the list of forums on the main page of the forums. Also, consider searching on the greater JCF website – this site is full of amazing resources on a wide variety of topics, all just a search away.
- 10. Report Violations If you witness or experience behavior that you feel is contrary to the letter or spirit of these guidelines, please report it rather than attacking other members. Do this by choosing the Report button (next to “Reply”) at the top of the post, and select a reason from the dropdown menu (Spam, Advertising, Harassment, or Inappropriate Content). The moderation team will be notified. Depending on the degree of bad behavior, further posts might require approval, or the user could be blocked from posting and even banned.
- 11. Private Messages Forum guidelines apply to all onsite private communications between members. Moderators do not have access to private exchanges, so if you receive messages from another member with inappropriate or hostile content, send a private message (with screenshots) to Stephen Gerringer and/or Michael Lambert.
Visit the Contact the Foundation page, select Technical Support, and fill out the contact form.
The Conversations of a Higher Order (COHO) consists of ten public forums loosely focused on a central theme. The forums are listed, with a brief description, on the COHO home page (each forum listed on that page also appears in the same order in the menu in the lefthand column – that menu stays with you as you move about the forums). This also shows who created the last post in each forum, and when.
When you visit a specific forum you will see the list of topics people have posted so far in that forum. Click on one to read that post and any replies. Feel free to add a reply if you have something to share, or just enjoy following the conversation. You can return to the COHO home page by clicking the "Home>Forums" breadcrumb at the top of the page – or move directly to a different forum by clicking on one of the listings from the forum menu in the lefthand column of the page.
If there’s anything you want to introduce – a question, an observation, or anything related to Campbell, myth, or one of his many related interests – create a topic in the forum you feel comes closest to including the subject you want to discuss. Most forums include in their description a link to a corresponding part of the website. For example, The Work of Joseph Campbell description has a link to all his published works: you can of course focus on a specific book or lecture, but also any topic related to the ideas arising out of his work is welcome in that forum.
When posting a new topic or a reply to an existing conversation, check the “Notify me of follow-up replies via email” box (conversations unfold at a leisurely pace: someone might need a few days to let what you write simmer in the back of their brain – this is how you find out someone has replied), and then click Submit. You can also click "Favorite" (top of the page on the right when reading forum threads) to be notified of all responses in a discussion.
Click on the Profile link under your user name in the upper left corner above the forum menu. Then select Edit and follow the prompts to upload an image file from your computer.
When you finish your post, before clicking the Submit button check the box at the bottom of your post that reads, “Notify me of follow-up replies via email.” You can also click on “Subscribe” (in the upper right corner of a thread) to follow the complete conversation (often a comment on someone else’s post might inspire a response from you).
We ask that when linking to web pages, please avoid posting the raw URL address in your text. Highlight the relevant text you'd like to link in your post, then select the link icon in your formatting bar above your post (immediately to the left of the picture icon, this looks like a diagonal paperclip). This opens a small field:
Paste the URL of the page you are linking to into the field provided. Then click on the gear icon to the right of that field, and check the box that says “Open link in a new tab” (so readers can see your link without having to navigate back to the forums), before clicking the green “Add Link” button.
To add an image to your post, click on the image icon in the menu at the top of your post (it's the icon on the far right):
In the Source field of the pop-up form, click on the camera icon on the far right. This should give you access to the files on your PC / laptop, or the photo library on your mobile device. Select the image, and add a brief description (e.g., "Minoan Goddess") in the appropriate field.
In the dimensions field, you only need enter the first number (240 is a good size for starters; if too small click the edit icon and increase that number). Then select OK.
Click on the name of the person you want to contact (under their avatar in a any of their posts). This link will take you to that member’s profile page. Then click on “Send a Message,” and compose.
If you witness or experience behavior that you feel is contrary to the letter or spirit of these guidelines, please report it rather than attacking other members. Do this by choosing the Report button (next to “Reply”) at the top of the post, and select a reason from the dropdown menu (Spam, Advertising, Harassment, or Inappropriate Content). The moderation team will be notified. Depending on the degree of bad behavior, further posts might require approval, or the user could be blocked from posting and even banned.
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