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December 23, 2021 at 10:44 pm in reply to: “Returning to the Void,” with mythologist Norland Telléz, Ph.D. #6676
Thank you for this work Norland and all the participants in this conversation. What a special little corner of the internet these MythBlasts are! I am so grateful.
First a little introduction to me as I haven’t commented on the MythBlast form yet! I have worked with Norland on creating a screenplay for a film re-imagining of the Popol Vuh story, as told by contemporary Mayans. So I went to film a Kaqchikel Mayan community in Guatemala, where the Popol Vuh is common cultural knowledge, and almost every part of life seems to reference the text. The birthing rituals often involve corn as Mayans are ‘people of the corn’ created by maize. Tepeu Gucumatz and the creator gods decorate altars and textiles. It was a delight to see the deep importance of the story of creation.
I also loved your MythBlast discourse about the flood stories (and there are so many flood myths worldwide!) as a justification and meaning-making for large natural disasters like this.
I also am fascinated by an almost identical progression ‘evolution’ type of narrative structure of these creation stories. ‘Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.’ – Genesis 1. Which of course sets the scene exactly the same eternal womb of darkness as the Popol Vuh, as Norland’s reference above.
Then there is a sequence of building the land, vegetation, creatures, man – in that exact order – no additional or missing steps – the same order! Which directly mirrors the most popular creation story in the US (I think?) which is evolutionary theory. This makes it very easy to see these as a metaphor for the scientific.
One of the similarities I also love to explore is that in both the Popol Vuh and the Old Testament, humans are intended to have only limited power. Both the creations culminate with an event in which there is a final adjustment, either physical or geographical, to people based on them knowing or ‘seeing’ too much. It is interesting to note the differences in reactions of God (or the gods) to the power of their creation. In the Old Testament, Adam and Eve are told not to eat the apple of the tree of knowledge – God’s wishes are to not let them have as much knowledge. There is a breach in the contract and humans are thrown out to live in a ‘lesser’ world. (Which also contrasts quite interestingly to the Diné Bahaneʼ – a Navajo emergence myth in which humans crawl up and up to find better and better worlds, landing in our current one). In the Popol Vuh, the corn people can see too far – even through rocks. ‘Perfect was their sight, and perfect was their knowledge of everything beneath the sky. If they gazed about them, looking intently, they beheld that which was in the sky that which was upon the earth. Instantly they were able to behold everything’ (Christensen). So the gods breathe mist in their eyes, which reduces their powers of sight to what we have today.
Finding some interesting parallels, I think perhaps one of the most interesting was the intention that humanity should be limited in its knowledge. In the Old Testament, we increased our knowledge to that of god-like (an unfavorable behavior) and in the Popol Vuh we were reduced. But why were the god(s) concerned about this? To stay in power? Could this also be a benefit to the ruling powers of both Mayan and Christian countries for people to hear this story? Perhaps not, but it does seem to place humanity squarely beneath the gods in a specific hierarchy. Creating an order from chaos, and giving a specific place to humanity.
Thank you Norland for brining this topic to us! The eternal return to creation! Gracias
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- 2. Respect Others’ Opinions These are conversations, not conversions. “Conversation” comes from the Latin words con (“with”) and verso (“opposite”). We expect diverse opinions to be expressed in these forums, and welcome them – but just because you disagree with what someone has to say doesn’t mean they don’t get to say it.
- 3. Come Clear of Mind In addition to expanding the mind, certain substances (alcohol, cocaine, marijuana, LSD, etc.) have been known to impair good judgment. We recommend you keep a journal while under the influence and then later make more rational determinations regarding what is appropriate to share in this forum.
- 4. Respect This Space The Joseph Campbell Foundation, a US not-for-profit organization, offers this forum as part of our mission of continuing Mr. Campbell’s work of increasing the level of public awareness and public discourse with regards to comparative mythology.
- 5. Avoid Contemporary Politics Given the volatile nature of contemporary political discourse, we ask that members steer clear of candidates or current political controversies. Forum members come from across the political spectrum. There are other fora across the internet for discussing myth and politics.
- 6. Be Polite Forum members come from many different sets of cultural assumptions, and many different parts of the world. Please refrain from language whose only purpose is offense. If it helps, imagine your grandmother reading forum posts – as perhaps she may, since other folks’ grandmothers are.
- 7. Refrain from Sexually Explicit Posts Please do not make sexually explicit posts within these forums, unless they are absolutely germane to the discussion underway – and even in that case, please try to warn readers at the top of your post. Not all members have the same threshold when it comes to taking offense to language and pictures. NOTE: Under no circumstances will we condone the posting of links to sites that include child pornography, even inadvertently. We will request that such links be removed immediately, and will remove them ourselves if compliance is not forthcoming. Any Associate knowingly posting such links will be suspended immediately; we will forward a snapshot of the offending page, the web address and the associate’s contact information to the appropriate criminal authorities
- 8. Refrain from Self-Promotion Announcements linking to your new blog post, book, workshop, video clip, etc., will be deleted, unless they are demonstrably part of the greater conversation. The only exception is the Share-Your-Work Gallery, a subforum within The Conversation with a Thousand Faces. If you have art, poetry, writing, or links to music and other work you would like to share, do so here.
- 9. Search First If you’re thinking of starting a new topic, asking a question, etc., please take advantage of the search functionality of this forum! You can find the search field above the list of forums on the main page of the forums. Also, consider searching on the greater JCF website – this site is full of amazing resources on a wide variety of topics, all just a search away.
- 10. Report Violations If you witness or experience behavior that you feel is contrary to the letter or spirit of these guidelines, please report it rather than attacking other members. Do this by choosing the Report button (next to “Reply”) at the top of the post, and select a reason from the dropdown menu (Spam, Advertising, Harassment, or Inappropriate Content). The moderation team will be notified. Depending on the degree of bad behavior, further posts might require approval, or the user could be blocked from posting and even banned.
- 11. Private Messages Forum guidelines apply to all onsite private communications between members. Moderators do not have access to private exchanges, so if you receive messages from another member with inappropriate or hostile content, send a private message (with screenshots) to Stephen Gerringer and/or Michael Lambert.
Visit the Contact the Foundation page, select Technical Support, and fill out the contact form.
The Conversations of a Higher Order (COHO) consists of ten public forums loosely focused on a central theme. The forums are listed, with a brief description, on the COHO home page (each forum listed on that page also appears in the same order in the menu in the lefthand column – that menu stays with you as you move about the forums). This also shows who created the last post in each forum, and when.
When you visit a specific forum you will see the list of topics people have posted so far in that forum. Click on one to read that post and any replies. Feel free to add a reply if you have something to share, or just enjoy following the conversation. You can return to the COHO home page by clicking the "Home>Forums" breadcrumb at the top of the page – or move directly to a different forum by clicking on one of the listings from the forum menu in the lefthand column of the page.
If there’s anything you want to introduce – a question, an observation, or anything related to Campbell, myth, or one of his many related interests – create a topic in the forum you feel comes closest to including the subject you want to discuss. Most forums include in their description a link to a corresponding part of the website. For example, The Work of Joseph Campbell description has a link to all his published works: you can of course focus on a specific book or lecture, but also any topic related to the ideas arising out of his work is welcome in that forum.
When posting a new topic or a reply to an existing conversation, check the “Notify me of follow-up replies via email” box (conversations unfold at a leisurely pace: someone might need a few days to let what you write simmer in the back of their brain – this is how you find out someone has replied), and then click Submit. You can also click "Favorite" (top of the page on the right when reading forum threads) to be notified of all responses in a discussion.
Click on the Profile link under your user name in the upper left corner above the forum menu. Then select Edit and follow the prompts to upload an image file from your computer.
When you finish your post, before clicking the Submit button check the box at the bottom of your post that reads, “Notify me of follow-up replies via email.” You can also click on “Subscribe” (in the upper right corner of a thread) to follow the complete conversation (often a comment on someone else’s post might inspire a response from you).
We ask that when linking to web pages, please avoid posting the raw URL address in your text. Highlight the relevant text you'd like to link in your post, then select the link icon in your formatting bar above your post (immediately to the left of the picture icon, this looks like a diagonal paperclip). This opens a small field:
Paste the URL of the page you are linking to into the field provided. Then click on the gear icon to the right of that field, and check the box that says “Open link in a new tab” (so readers can see your link without having to navigate back to the forums), before clicking the green “Add Link” button.
To add an image to your post, click on the image icon in the menu at the top of your post (it's the icon on the far right):
In the Source field of the pop-up form, click on the camera icon on the far right. This should give you access to the files on your PC / laptop, or the photo library on your mobile device. Select the image, and add a brief description (e.g., "Minoan Goddess") in the appropriate field.
In the dimensions field, you only need enter the first number (240 is a good size for starters; if too small click the edit icon and increase that number). Then select OK.
Click on the name of the person you want to contact (under their avatar in a any of their posts). This link will take you to that member’s profile page. Then click on “Send a Message,” and compose.
If you witness or experience behavior that you feel is contrary to the letter or spirit of these guidelines, please report it rather than attacking other members. Do this by choosing the Report button (next to “Reply”) at the top of the post, and select a reason from the dropdown menu (Spam, Advertising, Harassment, or Inappropriate Content). The moderation team will be notified. Depending on the degree of bad behavior, further posts might require approval, or the user could be blocked from posting and even banned.
Visit the Contact the Foundation page, select Community and Social Media, and fill out the contact form.